Timeline for Have philosophers speculated on how chaotic forces meeting together can result in order?
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| Nov 24, 2022 at 14:27 | review | Close votes | |||
| Dec 1, 2022 at 3:08 | |||||
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| Jun 27, 2022 at 22:36 | comment | added | user4894 | "And may I never learn to scorn the beauty out of chaos born, the woman and the man." -- Leonard Cohen, surely one who qualifies as a philosopher. "It's lonely here, there's no one left to torture." | |
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| Dec 28, 2021 at 18:35 | answer | added | Mozibur Ullah | timeline score: 0 | |
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| Aug 30, 2021 at 14:09 | comment | added | CriglCragl | @NelsonAlexander: See my answer for a definition of chaotic. A simple example would be the ejection of a planets by two three-body system, chaotic, & forming a stable orbit around each other. Our solar system started out as a chaotic post-supernova mass around a new star, and settled into an ecliptic that reduces largely to stable two-body dynamics. There are exceptions, like Saturn's ring, and the Kuiper belt which likely sent the meteor that destroyed the dinosaurs. | |
| Aug 30, 2021 at 13:58 | comment | added | CriglCragl | Relevant discussion: 'What's the “opposite” of emergence?' philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/81417/… | |
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| May 4, 2021 at 0:00 | history | tweeted | twitter.com/StackPhilosophy/status/1389369291645014021 | ||
| May 3, 2021 at 16:20 | comment | added | Honey | @Conifold There is’a difference between throwing all the ingredients of a pizza into a pan an expecting a pizza-hut level pizza vs. not them not moving and staying in their intact packaging/structure. For one self-organizing happens, for the other it doesn’t. We do see self-organizing in nature. But we don’t see it with our own creations — unless we follow certain instructions and heat and quantities and timings etc. | |
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| Apr 2, 2021 at 8:39 | answer | added | RodolfoAP | timeline score: -1 | |
| Apr 2, 2021 at 2:45 | comment | added | Double Knot | Metaphysical speculation itself is a perfect example of some chaotic forces intrinsically. After a long while, some stable realms of reliable knowledge get distilled and formed, while many others are still chaotic. The key here has nothing to do with chaos, it all depends on the regularities of underlying ontology. Even dreams have some regularities, not completely chaotic or arbitrary... | |
| Apr 1, 2021 at 23:47 | comment | added | MathematicalPhysicist | It doesn't matter what philosophers have and will speculate. The mystery will still remain... | |
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| Nov 9, 2020 at 5:15 | comment | added | J D | @CharlesMSaunders Make sure you tag me with (at)JD... no space. As usual, I find your interpretation completely plausible. It's up to the OP to restrict the sense if s/he wants. While I heartily endorse Conifold's interpretation as an analytical philosoher, I am not hostile to the notion that these are philosophical concepts that go back to the Pre-Socratics and are woven into metaphysical discussion historically. | |
| Nov 2, 2020 at 18:43 | answer | added | CriglCragl | timeline score: 1 | |
| Nov 2, 2020 at 8:41 | comment | added | Conifold | @NelsonAlexander "Chaos" and "order" in systems with many degrees of freedom are often described in terms of entropy (although this is not entirely accurate, and does not work for all examples). The result is that in classes of open non-equilibrium systems with influx of energy high entropy states evolve toward low entropy. This is often accomplished by reduction in effective dimension of the system, which is intuitively perceived as "more symmetry". Whether the system is more naturally represented as a collection of several interacting "chaotic" systems or not is not essential. | |
| Nov 2, 2020 at 5:54 | comment | added | Nelson Alexander | @Nick. That's a very good example, yet the question makes me wonder all over again how "chaos" is defined, let alone "order." | |
| Nov 2, 2020 at 4:40 | comment | added | nwr | @NelsonAlexander Perhaps when the chaotic, turbulent flow of a river interacts with the chaotic, turbulent flow of sub-zero weather to create highly ordered ice circles. (?) | |
| Nov 2, 2020 at 4:18 | comment | added | Nelson Alexander | I'm not sure the above answers from chaos theory address the more interesting framing of the question. How would the interaction of TWO OR MORE chaotic systems create order? And when would it create "more chaos?" I have no idea, but is "chaos" really that well defined that one could talk about "adding" two or more "chaotic" systems? I don't know the math, but this doesn't sound right to me. | |
| Nov 2, 2020 at 3:33 | comment | added | tkruse | @conifold, your first comment could rather be an answer? The sources are not purely from philosophers, but neither are they "unphilosophical". | |
| Oct 30, 2020 at 18:09 | comment | added | user37981 | @J D- Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the question but by 'chaotic forces', my read would be universe formation not the self- regulation which appeared much later in micro-evolution. | |
| Oct 30, 2020 at 0:42 | comment | added | CriglCragl | Various philosophers have speculated, or philosophical speculations have been made. Strange loops. Autopoeisis. Gaia hypothesis. Eusociality, and multilevel selection. But the real substance of the field is in non-linear dynamics, chaos & complexity theories, &state transitions between turbulent & linear flow. Transition between a three-body problem, & a system where two of the bodies are close enough to be treated as one or is possibly the simplest example, & applies to all stable orbits in our solar system. Chaos isn’t ‘the natural state’, neither is order. It’s purely a complexity issue. | |
| Oct 29, 2020 at 21:24 | comment | added | J D | @CharlesMSaunders Not only do self-ordering systems arise in cosmology, they occur in physics more generally in certain thermodynamic contexts, such as when the average kinetic energy of water molecules dips below the freezing points, and the water by way of hydrogen bonds starts to hexogonally crystalize giving you the characteristic 6-sided snowflake. Check out WP: self-organization: "Examples of self-organization include crystallization, thermal convection of fluids, chemical oscillation, animal swarming, neural circuits." | |
| Oct 29, 2020 at 13:41 | comment | added | Conifold | @CharlesMSaunders Self-organization has nothing to do with biology or anything else specifically, the mechanisms are purely mathematical, you just need differential or difference equations of a certain type. And they are encountered in cosmology just as well as in meteorology or chemistry or biology, see linked article. | |
| Oct 29, 2020 at 12:14 | comment | added | user37981 | @Conifold- Self-organization is an earthbound phenomena linked to biology and has virtually no bearing on astro-physics or conditions which formed after the 'Big Bang'. Further biological functions which fall under self-organization do not 'arise in chaos'. | |
| Oct 29, 2020 at 5:27 | comment | added | ttnphns | Where does order (structure) become to be different from chaos? 1-1--1 spacing is irregular. 1-1--1---1 is...hmm, and 1-1--1---1----1 is clearly an arithmetic progression. Sometimes more "instances" suddenly reveal a familiar pattern (due to apophenia) and sometimes less instances facilitate seeing an order (two points always lie on a straight line, for example). | |
| Oct 29, 2020 at 0:55 | review | Close votes | |||
| Nov 17, 2020 at 3:05 | |||||
| Oct 29, 2020 at 0:32 | comment | added | Conifold | Philosophers need not speculate. This has been proven mathematically in multiple physical, chemical, and biological models, and is well known to occur in nature. It is called self-organization. | |
| Oct 28, 2020 at 23:22 | comment | added | user37981 | The question should be reversed. It is not, how can, because that is precisely what occurred. The question should read, how 'did' chaotic forces meeting together... Then the question becomes one for physics, not philosophy. Probably something about the dissipation and dispersion of energy over time. Good question though. If you converted this to a metaphysical question, something on the order of, 'What type of causal relationship would describe the effect of an ordered universe which resulted from a chaotic Big Bang'? Something like that. | |
| Oct 28, 2020 at 22:31 | history | asked | user37389 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |