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Finitism denies the existence of infinite mathematical objects (e.g. quantification over infinite domains is not considered meaningful). Is the position that denies the existence of uncountable sets (but allows for countable, i.e. discrete, sets) defended in literature?

I searched for "discretism" without success.

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    I never heard about accepting countable sets but negating non-countable sets. Indeed I am sceptical that this is a useful position: Because the powerset of an infinite countable set is an uncountable set.
    – Jo Wehler
    Commented Dec 29, 2023 at 12:45
  • It's usually called predicativism, see Storer(10) for details (e.g. the denial of the powerset axiom). Commented Dec 29, 2023 at 13:55
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    @JoWehler Surely, if you hold such a position, you wouldn't accept the powerset axiom, I don't see a problem with that
    – user70755
    Commented Dec 29, 2023 at 14:31
  • @KristianBerry Thank you for the reference, I will take a look at it
    – user70755
    Commented Dec 29, 2023 at 14:32
  • @Victor Can you define the Cartesian product of two sets without using the power set axiom? - I am curious how much results used in mathematics can be saved in Storer's thesis. - Because you will look at the thesis: Could you afterwards add a short comment to your question?
    – Jo Wehler
    Commented Dec 29, 2023 at 16:41

2 Answers 2

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There are a number of subtle variations that the denial of a natural powerset (the powerset of ℕ) can take. In Barton and Friedman[21] we find that 20 is inflated to the size of a proper class (c.f. Matthews[21] as well as "pocket-sized set theory"), where proper classes might be taken to be in some sense "complete" infinities, but not as sets: they have elements but aren't themselves elements, e.g. for ORD (the proper class of ordinals) there is no {ORD}, etc. So there wouldn't be an {ℝ}, here.

On the other hand, one might deny the powerset of ℕ as a completed infinity altogether, too. This is more or less how it goes in predicativism, where a reference to "all" subsets of ℕ is taken to be impredicative. One can go even further and think through only the limit of predicativity "given the natural numbers":

We also note that the addition of inaccessible set axioms to a weak subsystem of CZF (with no set induction) produces a theory of strength Γ0, the ordinal singled out by Feferman and Schütte as the limit of predicativity given the natural numbers (Crosilla and Rathjen 2001; see also section 1.3).

Then even Γ0 becomes a sort of "barrier" within the domain of countable ordinals. That ordinal is, normally speaking, relatively small (or "short" might be a better description). What is this ordinal? Here's a rather perspicuous expression from the MathSE, in terms of an infinite extension of the addition-multiplication-exponentiation-tetration sequence:

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So regarding "predicativity given the natural numbers," we might speak of a denial not only of uncountable sets, but even of countable ones as of the above.

Note that, without the axiom scheme of replacement, one has only countably many uncountable alephs in play and ℵω is equivalent to the universe of sets. Also, countable ordinals of length ω + ω and beyond are not provably sets in this context. One will still have uncountable sets, but with serious restrictions on the details. How much this is compatible with the intuitions behind countabilism proper depends on whose intuitions we are speaking to.

List of countabilist positions thus indicated:

  1. ℝ is a completed proper class, and is then not a set.
  2. ℝ is neither complete nor incomplete as a proper class, and is not a set.
  3. ℝ is incomplete and is not a proper class, nor a set.
  4. The same as (1), (2), or (3) except with Γ0 in place of ℝ.
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  • I need to read up more on this notion of completeness, thanks for the references
    – user70755
    Commented Dec 30, 2023 at 17:06
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This position is called "countabilism." The 2022 paper "In defense of Countabilism" by Builes and Wilson is freely available on the Web (e.g. from Wilson's website, here). It cites many recent works on the subject and is a good entry-point into the literature.

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    This is exactly what I needed, thank you.
    – user70755
    Commented Dec 29, 2023 at 16:59
  • Reading the paper, I don't know if its exactly what they are looking for. It's more of an argument for a new notion of size, rather than denying the existence of a countable set ( for the usual notion of cardinality) Commented Dec 29, 2023 at 23:50
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    @MichaelCarey I agree that the authors of the article seem to be arguing for some new notion of size. However, this is what the OP asked for: "the position that denies the existence of uncountable sets (but allows for countable, i.e. discrete, sets) defended in literature". The paper I linked defines countabilism as follows: "Countabilism: Necessarily, every infinite collection (set or plurality) is countable." I think this indeed satisfies the description given by the OP, although perhaps it is also a bit stronger, due to the modal claim ("necessarily").
    – user509184
    Commented Dec 30, 2023 at 2:31
  • You are right, and It was a interesting read and a good answer, I guess my comment is just intended to add some clarification- that the paper's notion of "size" and so countability, is different than standard- so although they use the same word, it has a distinct meaning. Commented Dec 30, 2023 at 2:40

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