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I'm asking whether mathematical Platonism can exist without mind-body dualism because Platonism posits that mathematical objects are abstract, non-physical entities that exist independently of human minds. If our brains, governed by physical laws, can somehow access these abstract objects, it raises the question of whether dualism is necessary to explain this interaction. Without mind-body dualism, it seems unclear how purely physical brains could connect with a non-physical realm, which leads me to wonder if a non-dualistic explanation for Platonism is feasible.

Is mind-body dualism necessary for mathematical Platonism?

If yes, would that imply that reality consists of at least three distinct substances:

  • the physical,
  • the mental,
  • and the Platonic realm?

For context, see:
Since mathematicians are physical beings, does this mean that mathematics ultimately reduces to physics?
If mathematical platonism is true, how do biological brains governed by physical laws access eternal platonic mathematical truths?

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    Your closing para is more or less Penrose' 3 worlds
    – Rushi
    Commented Sep 29 at 11:04
  • 1
    Popper has similar. I prefer Penrose.
    – Rushi
    Commented Sep 29 at 11:06
  • 2
    Yes, the original setting of platonism was straight idealism. The physical/sensible was simply a degenerate derivative of the ideal (forms) and there is no problem with it affecting its derivatives, including by inducing laws of physics. Many other forms of idealism have been offered since, so there is no need for dualistic metaphysics with mind and matter as independent entities.
    – Conifold
    Commented Sep 29 at 11:08

5 Answers 5

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You ask:

Is mathematical Platonism possible without mind-body dualism?

Yes. I've never seen anyone claim that Platonic thinking requires mind-body dualism, and I don't believe any compelling argument exists it does. If we take a look at the IEP's article on mathematical Platonism (IEP), in fact, we find no mention of dualism at all. Why might this be? Because Platonic thinking largely leans on the idea that mathematical structure and objects is independent of human thought entirely. Thus, it would be contradictory to claim such a thesis and then require some property of the mind to be a requirement. From the IEP:

Platonists argue—or, more frequently, simply assume—that the best explanation of this objectivity is that mathematical theories have a subject matter that is quite independent of rational beings and their activities. The Independence Thesis is a standard way of articulating the relevant type of independence.

Mind-body dualism (IEP), as well, has no ontological commitment to mathematical realism. The default position in mathematical philosophy that does have commitments between mathematical activity and the mind is another position entirely. L.E.J Brouwer was an advocate of mathematical intuitionism (SEP). Here we see some form of dependence, in contradiction to mathematical realism, between abstract objects and the mind. From the SEP:

Intuitionism is a philosophy of mathematics that was introduced by the Dutch mathematician L.E.J. Brouwer (1881–1966). Intuitionism is based on the idea that mathematics is a creation of the mind. The truth of a mathematical statement can only be conceived via a mental construction that proves it to be true, and the communication between mathematicians only serves as a means to create the same mental process in different minds.

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  • "Why might this be? Because Platonic thinking largely leans on the idea that mathematical structure and objects is independent of human thought entirely" - But then how are physical brains able to have epistemic access to non-physical abstract Platonic objects, if they don't have a non-physical component that can interact with such a realm, which sounds a lot like mind-body dualism?
    – user80226
    Commented Sep 29 at 15:39
  • @user80226 you might like Mark Balaguer’s proposed method of access: there are so many mathematical (platonic) objects that we can’t avoid thinking about them. Not that we hold the exact abstract objects in our minds, but we think about non-abstract correlates by our human brains. He calls this full-blooded Platonism and is his way to solve the access problem
    – J Kusin
    Commented Sep 29 at 15:50
  • @user80226 No idea. My position is that mathematical realism is a misunderstanding. I'm an intuitionist, and mathematics is best described as an intersubjective and constructive activity. In fact, I also lean heavily towards instrumentalism and contemporary conceptualism. I think "real" is a very abused term.
    – J D
    Commented Sep 29 at 16:56
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I would say that there is dualism, but it is not necessarily mind-body-dualism or at least mind-body is not the most accurate label.

I believe a better label for the fundamental dualism would be energy-information-dualism.

Everything physical consists of energy, matter is a form of energy. Everything mental and everything abstract is information.

The mind is not the other substance. The mind is just the brain's ability to process information.

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  • Interesting insight — thanks! Most CSists don't know/remember that The Bit on which so much of their field is based comes not from engineering OR math but information theory
    – Rushi
    Commented Sep 29 at 11:34
  • Agreed. See this answer to the OP's prior question. philosophy.stackexchange.com/a/117598/29339 Physics is matter-energy/abstraction dualism, so the interaction is assumed from the start. But consciousness is not needed for physics. Only for the rest of life. The next question should presume your dualism, then ask about consciousness.
    – Dcleve
    Commented Sep 29 at 17:37
  • Not only is this merely the author's personal opinion, and explicitly so, without any reference or argument to support it, it does not even answer OP's question, that was specifically about Plato's views. How on earth is this the most voted answer?
    – armand
    Commented Sep 30 at 4:50
  • I did answer the question: Mind-body dualism is not necessary. Answers should be judged based on whether they contribute and make sense, not by whose ideas they are. Original thinking should be encouraged and evaluated and not bluntly dismissed. Commented Sep 30 at 7:08
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    @armand I don't see an explicit request for references about Plato in the question. I was under the impression that Platonism isn't just about Plato. Kind of like when someone asks about Newtonian physics, it doesn't mean they are asking about Newton. I'm not saying I agree with this answer but just that I'm a little unsure of that specific complaint.
    – JimmyJames
    Commented Sep 30 at 18:44
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Synthesizing an answer from a bunch of Conifold comments on (P/p)latonism from

  • here (an old one)
  • here (this question)
  • here (from a few days ago)

with some suitable rephrasing and reordering and (parenthesized) commentary:

Modern platonists (note small ‘p’) are not Platonists (capital ‘P’). And abstract objects (in the modern eg. SEP sense) are not Platonic forms (I’ve changed Conifold’s ‘p’ to ‘P’) Plato's animated forms are deemed too magical and metaphorical to be taken at face value today. (I agree with the ‘magical’ not the ‘metaphorical’ — I believe most modern platonists treat Plato's magic/mysticism as metaphor. This is developed further below)

So... yes, the original (Plato's) setting of Platonism (Conifold's ‘p’ → ‘P’) was straight idealism. The physical/sensible was simply a degenerate derivative of the ideal (forms) and there is no problem with it affecting its derivatives, including by inducing laws of physics. Many other forms of idealism have been offered since, so there is no need for dualistic metaphysics with mind and matter as independent entities.

Benacerraf’s Dilemma

Most modern platonists, unlike Plato, do not envision a separate platonic realm and see mathematical (and other abstract) objects as perceptual and/or conceptual aspects of our ordinary "realm" accessed through various abstraction procedures, see IEP

As I understand it Benacerraf's dilemma applies to modern platonism not to Plato's original, the crucial difference between the two being that the platonist's forms are inert and non-causal unlike Plato who believed them to be the primal reality.

Why Plato is hard on the modern reader

Post Plato, the western world has been more Aristotelian than Platonic.

While Plato focused on the realm of ‘forms’ (unsatisfactory translation of eidos) as the ultimate reality, Aristotle shifted the focus to the material world and the nature of objects within it. He argued that objects are composed of two essential elements: substance and form.

  • Substance: This refers to the underlying amorphous matter or material composition of an object.
  • Form: This is the organizing principle or essence that gives an object its specific characteristics and defines what it is.

Aristotle believed that the form and matter of an object are inseparable and together constitute its essence.

Crucially, for Aristotle neither form alone nor substance alone is properly causal. This has become the default view from Aristotle on.

So Plato's Ideation is the light whose shadows are the material world looks too kooky/spooky to be taken seriously.

In short, even if we are reading Plato, we read him with Aristotelian eyes.

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Let's start by combining two strange, but true, premises:

  1. Georg Cantor, the first great prophet of set theory, believed (at least some of the time) that his insights into the transfinite had been provided to him by the divine nature (this is from Dauben[??], as cited in Wikipedia):

Letters (and the testimony of colleagues who knew him) reveal that Cantor believed he was chosen by God to bring the truths of set theory to a wider audience. He also regarded the successive waves of manic-depression that began to plague him in the 1880's -- peaks of intense activity followed by increasingly prolonged intervals of introspection -- as divinely inspired. Long periods of isolation in hospital provided opportunities for uninterrupted reflection during which Cantor envisioned visits from a muse whose voice reassured him of the absolute truth of set theory, whatever others might say about it. ... Elsewhere, Cantor actually described his conviction about the truth of his theory explicitly in quasi-religious terms:

My theory stands as firm as a rock; every arrow directed against it will return quickly to its archer. How do I know this? Because I have studied it from all sides for many years; because I have examined it from all sides for many years; because I have examined all objections that have ever been made against the infinite numbers, and above all because I have followed its roots, so to speak, to the first infallible cause of all created things.

  1. Not every theist is a dualist. For example, Peter van Inwagen is a Christian materialist.
  • Conclusion: it is roughly possible to believe that I am a fully material being, that a being with absolutely infinite power can affect the contents (and even the structure) of my mind, and so that I, despite my material essence, can be "taught by God" about the "contents and structure of God's mind," to wit the transfinite things of set theory.

Now, to be sure, I don't know how e.g. van Inwagen applies his materialism to the issue of God's own nature. Tertullian, for example, thought of the Father as constituted out of His own kind of matter, with the Son and the Spirit as particular extensions of this matter. Or one might follow Newton in declaring that space is a sensorium of God, while somehow also trying to follow Descartes in declaring that space is res extensa:

... supersubstantivalism takes space as primary, and matter as secondary or derived from space (see Sklar 1974, 222). Descartes, on the contrary, takes matter or body as primary and space as a derived, abstract concept: “the same extension which constitutes the nature of body also constitutes the nature of space, and . . . these two things differ only in the way that the nature of the genus or species differs from that of the individual” (Pr II 11).

So, by making these or similar dialectical moves, one might try for a stabilization of a non-dualistic ante rem realism about mathematics. Granted, for such a theory to depend on something as ethereal as the concept of God can be quite troubling, but if we're just asking about general possibilities, then I suppose that this is one of them.


Another option is to go a neo-Kantian route of sorts. Start with what seems like in re realism, with a claim that mathematical objects are "embedded in" the transcendental will. If you want to bypass Frege's complaint about how people can't have their own copies of e.g. the number 2, each per a person's own mind, adapt this will to the image of a common agent intellect. (The universality of the laws of the will does duty for this notion in Kant anyway.) But now Kant also claimed that transcendental freedom is not really much a part of experience: its causal principle transcends that of physics. So how do we know the laws of this freedom? In the second Critique, Kant writes:

We can become conscious of pure practical laws just as we are conscious of pure theoretical principles, by attending to the necessity with which reason prescribes them and to the elimination of all empirical conditions, which it directs. The concept of a pure will arises out of the former, as that of a pure understanding arises out of the latter.

This is akin to the abstractionism mentioned by Conifold in his comment (or it's even just a version of it, I think). So now if mathematics is embedded/encoded in the seemingly in re will, which straddles the divide with the ante rem realm, and yet the will is not such as can be clearly declared to be a metaphysical substance per experience, then do we have a non-dualistic account of how ante rem mathematical knowledge is possible? Note also that Kant floated the idea of neutral monism in the first Critique:

The task of explaining the community of the soul with the body does not properly belong to the psychology of which we are here speaking; because it proposes to prove the personality of the soul apart from this communion (after death), and is therefore transcendent in the proper sense of the word, although occupying itself with an object of experience,—only in so far, however, as it ceases to be an object of experience. But a sufficient answer may be found to the question in our system. The difficulty which lies in the execution of this task consists, as is well known, in the presupposed heterogeneity of the object of the internal sense (the soul) and the objects of the external senses; inasmuch as the formal condition of the intuition of the one is time, and of that of the other space also. But if we consider that both kinds of objects do not differ internally, but only in so far as the one appears externally to the other—consequently, that what lies at the basis of phenomena, as a thing in itself, may not be heterogeneous; this difficulty disappears. There then remains no other difficulty than is to be found in the question—how a community of substances is possible; a question which lies out of the region of psychology, and which the reader, after what in our analytic has been said of primitive forces and faculties, will easily judge to be also beyond the region of human cognition.

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No.

The brain thinking about math concepts could – conceptionally – be equivalent to a computer running its programs. The physical matter of the brain is completely and utterly separate from whatever it is it is thinking about; the same as a computer (the physical hardware, electricity and such) has nothing whatsoever to do with the software and data it is working with.

The latter is, in both cases, information. Information is physically real in the sense that you can figure out where it is stored or processed (i.e., in the synapses and the complicate chemical processes going on there; or in the transistors and basic storage elements within a computer). If it is written big enough, you can see it.

Information, like other structural elements (i.e., the exact ordering of more basic physical elements – think lego blocks), is pure physics; you can describe it, recreate it, destroy it and so on and forth; you do not need some kind of invisible, unseeable, unprovable, unfathomable dualism for it.

N.B. this answer does not pose or require that there actually is no dualism. It just explains why abstract concepts can be thought about (or calculated) without requiring dualism.

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