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Do you understand Marcelo Gleiser's "colossal waste of time" reasoning?

Physicist Marcelo Gleiser objects to the notion that posthumans would have a reason to run simulated universes: "...being so advanced they would have collected enough knowledge about their past to have little interest in this kind of simulation. ...They may have virtual-reality museums, where they could go and experience the lives and tribulations of their ancestors. But a full-fledged, resource-consuming simulation of an entire universe? Sounds like a colossal waste of time." Gleiser also points out that there is no plausible reason to stop at one level of simulation, so that the simulated ancestors might also be simulating their ancestors, and so on, creating an infinite regress akin to the "problem of the First Cause". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis

I did have a different impression, that in philosophy, even extremely remote possibilities will never be rounded to a zero value.

For example, I accept this argument:

It is possible that consciousness requires a vital substrate that a computer cannot provide and that simulated people, while behaving appropriately, would be philosophical zombies. This would undermine Nick Bostrom's simulation argument; humans cannot be a simulated consciousness, if consciousness, as humans understand it, cannot be simulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis

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Yes, I do understand the "colossal waste of time" reasoning. So far, the simulation we live in- assuming we live in one- seems to have been running for more than thirteen billion years, which seems a colossal waste of anyone's time.

How do you suppose the simulators are monitoring their simulation? Is it streaming in real time, or do they come back every billion years or so to see how it is getting on? Or maybe they are more advanced than that, and they have monitoring bots reporting on key events. Interesting to speculate on how they are programmed- what criteria they use to determine which events are report-worthy.

In addition to the "colossal waste of time" argument, I incline favourably to the "colossal waste of resources" argument, since a simulation supposedly intended to focus on us humans extends to a Universe so large that we cannot ever see all of it. I would have supposed a vast intelligence would have programmed a more efficient model.

"Something being very improbable" can sometimes mean something being utterly implausible nonsense presented without a shred of evidence or supporting detail.

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  • Is it really any more of a colossal waste of time than positing the existence of god? If not, then why does philosophy not consider that a colossal waste of time just as much as many do for the idea that we live in a simulation?
    – Marriott
    Commented May 5 at 6:37
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    @Marriott I can't speak for philosophy, but I agree that endless discussions about God are a colossal waste of time. Commented May 5 at 8:04
  • @MarcoOcram - "seems to have been running for more than thirteen billion years" - This is only if Creators are completely brainless. Otherwise, they would figure out that to draw some dots in the sky (with appropriate redshift) you need only one second. Commented May 5 at 12:17
  • I have no idea what you mean. Please elaborate. Commented May 5 at 12:24
  • @MarcoOcram - You make an impression as you never saw a computer game in your life and don't know that a computer game can be stopped, restarted from any point, replayed, rolled back. And all these actions will be completely transparent for the characters in the game. Commented May 5 at 12:36
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My 0.1 cent.

Assuming we live in a simulation, the "waste of time" argument is flawed since our time unit can be vastly different than the real time unit, ie 1 billion years our time may simply correspond to 1 second real time (outside simulation).

However the simulation hypothesis is flawed itself. Arguments why simulation hypothesis is flawed:

A. It assumes a perfect simulation but at least according to known laws (eg thermodynamics) such perfect simulation cannot exist physically, the underlying mechanism cannot completely hide itself. A simulation cannot block (the true) physical laws from holding even inside the simulation, so our known laws necessarily must reflect true laws. If a simulation can completely hide its underlying mechanism and block the underlying physical laws from applying inside it, then it is not a simulation anymore, it is rather a separate and complete universe/reality by itself. Similarly, an imperfect simulation cannot give the impression of a valid alternative perceived reality, to the conscious sims inside, because in such a case it would completely hide the underlying mechanism of the actual reality which is impossible for an imperfect simulation. So, if the simulation is imperfect then we can find out or would have already found out in principle thus the argument is undermined.

B. The simulation makers either want us to know we are simulated or not. If they want us to know, then we know it, which we don't. If they don't want us to know then they have to design such system so that it is impossible to betray it is a simulation. The only way to do that is for the system to be the real thing (see perfect simulation above). Either we do not live in a simulation else we would already know it.

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  • I would say that black and white, a perfect or not perfect simulation, would be too crude to assess the chances that we live in simulated reality. There are levels of perfection and the fact that for the last 60 years we did not find anything smaller than quarks could point to the limit of resolution (number of pixels) in our simulator. Commented May 5 at 23:11
  • If the simulation is imperfect then we can eventually find out since the underlying mechanism cannot be hidden completely. And we can know any simulation must necessarily be imperfect through known laws which necessarily must be a reflection of true laws (since the true laws cannot be blocked from holding even inside the simulation).
    – Nikos M.
    Commented May 6 at 8:24
  • Every simulation has to end, at some point. The condition(s) for ending the simulation run would be built in. Our reality could be a re-run of the previously aborted simulation with some conditional tweaks. When you go into digital format (including post-humans) anything is possible. Commented May 6 at 22:52
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    The takeaway of the argument is that no simulation can disguise itself as reality, either it will be found out else it would have to be the real thing. As such a simulation cannot do anything conceivable, for example it cannot make a contradiction true, because then it could not simulate anything. Similarly it cannot hide the true physical laws, they must somehow be reflected in the simulation and through these we know that simulation cannot be perfect and thus find out.
    – Nikos M.
    Commented May 7 at 7:37

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