If humans are supposed to use reason to support their claims but lack free will then it seems like we don't exercise rational thought because we're not free to adjudicate from among the reasons. If this is the case, then our confidence in our beliefs seems to be undercut including our skepticism in free will, hence the self refutation. Is skepticism of free will a self-refuting position?
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2There is libertarian and compatibilist free will, and the question does not clarify if only one is meant, or either.– tkruseCommented Aug 6 at 10:34
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Free will is awkward to define outside the context of distributing moral responsibility between man and God. It may be helpful to skip "free will skepticism" and instead consider "naturalistic determinism" or "naturalistic stochastic determinism" to avoid the inevitable argumentum ad Heisenberg.– g sCommented Aug 6 at 16:54
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we are not exercising free will when we use our reason. Reason can lead you to only one conclusion, the one that is granted by the premise and a sound reasoning. None of this depends on us. It is not up to us to decide if "All men are mortal, Socrates is a man" implies that Socrates is mortal. Reasoning is probably one of the worst example when it comes to discussing free will.– armandCommented Aug 7 at 3:41
5 Answers
The ability to "freely choose" between multiple answers (one correct and n wrong ones) is not necessary to produce the right answer. That's how computers produce correct answers.
The more freedom a reasoning entity had in choosing a wrong answer, the less it's answers should be trusted.
To be confident, we need the ability to check the result of our reasoning against some ground truth. That is sufficient. And if that is possible, then inability to freely choose wrong answers would warrant more confidence, not less. A deterministically learning algorithm would use both those 2 abilities, to check answers and to only pick correct inferences to infer the conclusion that it itself is fully deterministic.
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To reason one needs assumptions, if you cannot evaluate which assumptions are true, but are predetermined by physical processes, akin to rolling a dice, to conclude which ones are true, you cannot expect your reasoning to lead you to any correct conclusions.– GloriusCommented Aug 6 at 12:09
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If you cannot evaluate which assumptions.are true, but you have all the "freedom" in the world, you'd still never know if your reasoning led to any correct conclusion.– tkruseCommented Aug 6 at 12:19
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You're correct, I haven't shown freedom solves that problem, however, you attempted to present lack of free will as more trustworthy and I have shown that is not the case but ultimately relies on who/what set the deterministic rules. So, assuming the rules are the result of deterministic physical processes as opposed to wilfully made to comport with reality, the deterministic system will make more errors.– GloriusCommented Aug 6 at 12:27
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Sure, any two imperfect systems will make any number of errors. But you don't explain how many errors any given deterministic system will make, nor how many a system with freedom will make, nor why all deterministic systems with errors would all make more errors than any "free" system. Evolutionists could point to evolution yielding systems with very low error rates, yet fully deterministic.– tkruseCommented Aug 6 at 13:08
A computer program that plays chess or Go also needs to make choices. At each move, it has several choices, several possible continuations, several legal moves. It needs to plan ahead and model ("imagine") those choices and model relevant, likely responses. It needs to summarize and evaluate those plans in a heuristic and rational way, as far as possible, and select the move that seems "best" according to whatever further criteria of "best" it has.
A computer program obviously does not have a libertarian free will. But do we need to make any assumptions about humans beyond these capabilities in order to explain human choice actions?
Suppose we define (libertarian) free will as follows:
"A subject has free will" = "When deliberating about what to do, the subject has certain options (of which the subject is aware as option). When and if a subject actually makes a choice (selects one of the options), neither the fact that the subject selects one option (rather than doing nothing) nor the particular option that is selected in any way depend on physical causes - at least not in such a way that that fact (that an option is selected), or the particular selection could be predicted by anyone with any chance of being correct greater than by a random prediction."
(In "predicted by anyone" we could restrict this to "predicted by anyone other than the subject", though it's difficult and seems self-contradictory to assume that there could be actions that only the subject themselves could in principle predict. Wittgenstein's argument against the possibility of private languages might also be relevant in thise context. But to keep things a bit simpler, let's just restrict it to "predicted by someone other than the subject themselves".)
(Note that when we introduce a likelihood of making correct predictions, this really only makes sense when these scenarios -- choice actions and classes of choice actions -- are repeatable. But this is indeed exactly what we want. We're not talking about temporal singularities, even though this aspect of the problem also often seems to be ignored, especially by defenders of libertarian free will. It matters that we're speaking about repeatable actions and events.)
It seems obvious to me that this concept of free will sees choice actions as absolutely indeterministic, and thereby unpredictable (and irrational). The problem is that this can not be a basis or a justification of moral responsibility or accountability. For instance, if someone promises to do something, the promise is only trustworthy if we know that the person is really committed ("determined") to keep it. Promising to do something implies making one's actions predictable to others and presupposes being able to predict one's own actions. Assuming that this is based on a libertarian free would undermine this, make it inexplicable that we ever trust anyone (inclusing ourselves) to keep their promises.
The phrase "making one's actions predictable" is not meant as some magical step, of course. It's tantamount to simply predicting one's own actions (either to oneself or someone else) and presenting them in the form of a social bond. (The performative speech act of 'promising' implies that one allows the other to demand accountability for breaking the promise, in case one breaks it later). But a subject cannot simply predict anything. There is always a context of "normalcy" (also usually ignored in the abstract defenses of libertarian free will).
For instance, an addict may sincerely belief they "have" certain options and promise themselves or someone else "I will never smoke again", but this may not be a very reliable prediction. (I wonder how many believers in 'libertarian free will' have ever struggled to overcome a real addiction.) In daily life, in actual choice actions, "having options a and b" need not be as clear cut as libertarians might need it to be.
In short, if free will is understood as "libertarian free will", rather than "compatibilist free will", skepticism of free will does not refute itself. It's rather the reverse: libertarian free will makes choices actions inexplicable, and thereby, in a sense, refutes itself.
Yes; here is one way that a free will skeptic generally undercuts himself. I don't remember who first said it, but I remember hearing that if we have no free will, our beliefs are like soda fizz bubbling over a glass; what we think is ultimately determined by blind chemical processes. Differences in opinion are reduced to differences in inputs and to individual "quirks" in the way each person's brain calculates answers. But if that's the case, who's to say that one "soda fizz" is more "true" than any other? Who's to say of the person that fundamentally disagrees, that he is any less correct? Their "soda fizz" is just different, and no less determined. And that includes the very skepticism of free will itself.
Thus, a person cannot consistently hold that free will skepticism is true, let alone argue why others should adopt it as a matter of truth. All he can consistently say is that the inputs into his thinking, coupled with the individual quirks of his brain's complex processes, have produced skepticism of free will in his particular case.
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"what we think is ultimately determined by blind chemical processes" - processes that are us. Were you able to resist the subtle, perhaps unconscious temptations to post your answer here? (Did you actually first deliberate about posting or not posting? Or in choosing each word, weigh which word to choose?) Of course you can imagine you might have not posted anything (or might have changed your wording) - but in fact, you did post something. Do you know all the causes that led to that? Commented Aug 6 at 14:44
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Since most of those causes are part of who or what you are, is it then necessary to assume that anything apart from having imagination is needed to make a choice? Commented Aug 6 at 14:44
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@mudskipper--The point I was going for wasn't the inherent irrationality of the idea of deterministic choice. I grant it can exist if defined that way (e.g., in computers, as you mention). The point I was going for is that it is inherently irrational for us to argue against our own free will, because if our beliefs are determined, then our very skepticism of free will cannot be trusted to be based in truth; it is merely the "fizz" bubbling up from our unique chemistry and mental inputs. Commented Aug 6 at 16:06
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1I don't see how you can infer from "thoughts are determined" to "thoughts can not be based in truth". A long process of random selection and concatenation of letters (a group of monkeys typing) can generate any finite-length empirical report. So, the causal history of how a proposition comes to be does not seem relevant for determining its truth-value... (I am that "fizzing" you speak of.) Commented Aug 6 at 16:19
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1Peter - I understand your point, but it just makes no sense to me. To determine whether or not something is true in empirical science, we use certain criteria -- measurements, repeatable observations -- None of that changes, if determinism is (partially or completely) true. We can still use the same criteria. Then as long as those are clear enough, and we follow the same procedures, and are not delusional etc, we can predict we will reach the same conclusions - as in fact we do (often). Commented Aug 6 at 17:29
free will or the lack of thereof does not contradict reason, it gives it another meaning. lacking free will and reason is not much more than being a rock, though keeping reason basically means that we make decisions or take beliefs based on what we already know, and compile it together with our pre-existing values to come up with a an answer to any problem.
skepticism against free will means that through this type of reasoning, a person concluded that their decisions are not through free will but by rational, though often flawed from lack of knowledge or incorrect beliefs, reasoning. I hope this is an insightful answer
Lacking free will one would not be able to do anything that would require making choices.
A belief is a choice, a claim is a choice, skepticism is a choice, reasoning is a series of choices.
This means that free will skepticism is self-refuting.
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3This is a circular argument. Free will is smuggled in along with the definition of 'choice'. If you are trying to make the case that determinists assume free choice by claiming to be rational you need to elaborate.– GloriusCommented Aug 6 at 12:06
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1Nothing circular, nothing smuggled. Free will is the ability to make choices. Determinists assume there is no such thing as choice. I am not trying to make a case, I am only answering the question Commented Aug 6 at 13:00
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1This answer which again pushes personal beliefs merely refutes lack of free will. But that does not show it's SELF-refuting. So missing the topic again. The question was NOT whether we have free will, or whether life without free will is possible.– tkruseCommented Aug 6 at 13:11
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2A belief is a choice? When I have perceptions, I chose to have those perceptions? Moore's paradox "It's raining but I don't belief it" is not a paradox? Commented Aug 6 at 14:35
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1So is perception also equal to "holding something true without compelling evidence"? Commented Aug 6 at 15:26