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There are some questions which give rise to debate for decades, centuries or even millenia, which do not seem to get conclusively decided. Examples include the notion of Solipsism, what did Descartes really mean with the cogito, the Hard Problem of Consciousness, philosophical zombies, basis for religious belief, a priori arguments for God existing, even discussions about whether apathy and/or agnosticism are necessary positions, whether one can "be one" even under protest of never wanting to consider the idea, or never having heard of the ideas in question and so on.

What are some ways to conclude such debates that everyone must accept, on pain of being irrational if they do not? If there are not such ways, then I think ignoring invitations to debate these questions will have to be the answer.

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9 Answers 9

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You ask:

What are Philosophical ways of ending unproductive debates?

A very important way advocated by a number of philosophers, such as Rorty and Wittgenstein, is to frame philosophy not as a conflict of ideas at all, but an exploration of them. In argumentation theory, there are four ways an argument can be viewed: one of them is debate, but the other is a process of mutual education. Therefore, one simply has to reject the adversarial nature of argumentation and embrace philosophical quietism.

Quietism is one philosophical position that has the potential to end all disputes. It is a metaphilosophical position that philosophy is not a winner-takes-all debate among agents pursuing the agenda of what Rorty calls representiationalism, but rather an acknowledgement of Wittgenstein's call to recognize that language bewitches us. From WP:

On this reading Quietism in philosophy sees the role of philosophy as broadly therapeutic or remedial. Quietist philosophers believe that philosophy has no positive thesis to contribute; rather, it defuses confusions in the linguistic and conceptual frameworks of other subjects, including non-quietist philosophy.[2] For quietists, advancing knowledge or settling debates (particularly those between realists and non-realists)[3] is not the job of philosophy, rather philosophy should liberate the mind by diagnosing confusing concepts.[4]

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  • Well, that certainly describes why I am here!
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 30 at 16:36
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    The quietist stance is also compatible with the radical scepsis of Sextus Empiricus or the scepsis of Zhuangzi.
    – mudskipper
    Commented Nov 1 at 1:42
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One option is to agree to disagree:

To "agree to disagree" is to resolve a conflict (usually a debate or quarrel) by having all parties tolerating but not accepting the opposing positions. It generally occurs when all sides recognize that further conflict would be unnecessary, ineffective or otherwise undesirable.

The SEP article on disagreement includes the following examples of philosophical responses:

Disagreement has been put to many tasks in philosophy. In metaethics, disagreements about ethics have been used to motivate anti-realist views. In the philosophy of religion, disagreement has been used to motivate religious pluralism. This article examines the central epistemological issues tied to the recognition of disagreement, the implications that disagreement has for our knowledge and the rationality of our beliefs.

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    @ScottRowe Even if the truth is blindingly obvious, it might be so privately instead of publicly. So if person A has private access to the truth and person B doesn't, there is still room for disagreement between A and B, even if A is right.
    – user80226
    Commented Oct 29 at 1:35
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    Still pondering... Maybe the problem is the difference between someone and everyone? That boundary where knowledge goes from personal to public? I can know something, sure, but it is useless to anyone else (and maybe to me) unless I can get others to see it. One Wright Brother couldn't build the airplane. For others to perceive something, it depends on their goals. So getting agreement there is really the first step. Well, now that I've solved the world's problems, time for breakfast.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 29 at 10:30
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    @ScottRowe "I've always had this idea that if two people can't agree, it means they are both wrong, because the truth should be so blindingly obvious as to permit no dissent." Why should truth be "blindingly obvious"? Given the amount of disagreement in the world, I think Occam's Razor is that the "one truth" is generally not obvious at all, if it even exists. (not criticism, I'm just wondering why you say you've always had this idea, as it seems rather counter-intuitive to me)
    – xLeitix
    Commented Oct 29 at 12:53
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    @ScottRowe "Can something that is true remain invisible to someone actually seeking it?" Oh, easily. Plenty of questions have specific true answers that are impossible to find. "What was the exact population of Athens on May 5th, 34 BCE?", or "What was Napoleon's weight in ounces on his fourth birthday?", or "How many molecules of oxygen did I breathe in yesterday?" Granted, these examples lean towards reducto ad absurdum to highlight the concept, but I'm sure you can think of similar questions that someone would actually be searching for an answer for in practice.
    – Idran
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:26
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    If you can't agree, and can't agree to disagree, walk away.
    – keshlam
    Commented Oct 29 at 23:32
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Well, first, the idea that someone will conclude they are being irrational is mainly a rationalist pipe-dream. People might conclude they are wrong about something, and sometimes they might decide they are being overly emotional, but they almost never think they are being irrational about it. People always have their reasons, and reasons are always couched in some worldview that establishes what's good and right and worthwhile. It's far, far harder than you might think to convince someone their good, right, worthwhile worldview is irrational.

Further, we should all recognize (though few do) that rationality is a power mode, not all that dissimilar to physical force, social influence, legal/moral authority, etc. If we are intent on using rationality to force people into compliance — the way a physically strong person might intimidate another into submission, or a person with influence might crowd-shame another to obey - then we are starting off on the wrong foot. Any power can be abused, including the power of rationality.

When we have intractable philosophical questions, the intractability is rooted in emotions. Stubborn philosophical questions arise because someone decides to intellectually challenge some deeply held belief. It's interesting to note that every notion listed in the question — solipsism, cogito ergo sum, the 'hard problem' of consciousness, philosophical zombies, religious belief, a priori arguments for or against God — digs into the oh-so-deeply-held belief that we humans are something more than sum of our biological parts (a window into the question asker's soul, perhaps, if souls exist). People feel self-aware, independent, conscious, free; other people seem to experience the same things; we all ascribe that hard-to-avoid feeling to some source (usually some metaphysic). It's worth looking into those feelings and ascriptions to see if we can make anything of it. I'm not certain we need to solve such questions in any absolute sense. They create good positions for self-reflection, contemplation, and self-development, and we don't have to worry about them further unless they are resolved by advances in the physical sciences at some future point.

But such questions are troublesome to the extent they represent seats of power. To the above example, much of what we take as good and right in the world is built on those feelings and ascriptions, and many social institutions and positions owe their existence to them. Here is where we get into serious tangles. Religious leaders condemn secular law because it runs against their religious authority. Atheists attack the notion of the soul to dispute religious authority, then quickly backtrack to rehabilitate free will, without which we cannot have secular authority. Young idealists denounce political leadership as amoral and mercenary, while old partisans decry the lack of patriotism and honor in rebellious youth.

This shift into power-tangles creates a different type of intractable question; people engage these because they are trying to establish authority more than they are trying to establish truth (often, mind you, because they mistakenly believe that authority is what establishes truth), and people worried about authority can be very stubborn indeed. But this kind of intractable question can resolve through dialogical philosophy (such as the Socratic method), where we actively avoid asserting power through reason. Dialogical philosophy draws out the reasoning of the other and puts it through its paces (in the manner of Wittgenstein's 'therapy') in order to get down to its human (not philosophical) roots. When we humanize these questions (and thus humanize the person we are facing) the power-tangle dissolves, and we're left with the philosophical question itself.

Bit wordy, this; apologies…

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  • If ever I saw a nasty bullseye...
    – Rushi
    Commented Oct 30 at 17:59
  • Yes, very good about the power dynamic. To use 'rationality' in a coercive way would certainly be abusive. To me, all of these things boil down to ego and fear. I suppose by rational and irrational, I meant free from fear and ego versus emotional. To get beyond the power tangle, we must get to a place where we don't feel the need to defend ourselves. To truly do this takes a very radical revisioning of the self and the world. (Nonduality springs to mind) Not much chance of that becoming widespread.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 30 at 19:13
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    @ScottRowe Technially speaking, your last sentence is inconsitent with the rest. When Ramana Maharshi was asked about doing good, helping others etc, he painted the following scene: 2 friends go to sleep. One dreams of great events, travels, sagas. The other dreams nothing. The dreamer on awaking talks with the other about the events dreamed. The other has nothing to say. In short: The committed non dualist needs to keep asking: How much is all this world of diversity there and how much just my projection? (The "compare-n-contrast" of nonduality and solipsism is another interesting question)
    – Rushi
    Commented Oct 31 at 2:02
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This question suggests that unproductive debates are not worth having.The last paragraph of this question suggests that philosophical debates in order to be productive need to have a convincing conclusion.

But if productive debates have conclusions then we are done. If unproductive debates are not worth having then we are done too. Hence, after having had the debates we are done with philosophy.

The answer to your question then seems to be to refrain from philosophy.

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    This is a correct direction but a bit extreme. It's natural for people (Scott is a preeminent eg) to want to conclude debates. More prosaically, to have satisfying answers follow questions. But philosophy fundamentally doesn't work that way. Philosophy starts with illdefined fuzzy questions. Then through argument, dialogue, dialectic, hermeneutics etc reaches finer clearer questions. Ofc that makes a philosophy SE a self contradiction. Evidently that's not an issue to anyone!!
    – Rushi
    Commented Oct 30 at 5:36
  • Yeah, it would be really great to just get things settled. I have other stuff to do.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 30 at 16:35
  • @Rushi, I wrote my answer tongue in cheek and as a covert allusion to Wittgenstein's famous concluding proposition of his Tractatus. But I am new here and I appreciate your helping hand!
    – Philomath
    Commented Oct 31 at 2:12
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    @ScottRowe, Wittgenstein, after having solved philosophy, became a teacher at an elementary school...
    – Philomath
    Commented Oct 31 at 2:16
  • Maybe he was at my school? As a kid I was a bit startled by the jaded, sarcastic teachers I saw there. (Not towards the students, just about the social and political situation.) But, I learned Skepticism from an early age!
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 31 at 11:19
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What are some ways to conclude such debates that everyone must accept, on pain of being irrational if they do not?

Apatheism is a way. The mentioned issues are not discussed in parliaments or company board meetings, bringing them up there would be considered irrational.

Same for science articles, news reports, construction sites, union negotiations, medical consultations, chemical research labs, power plants control rooms, airline cockpits...

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    So would much else not figure in boards and parliaments of what gets discussed here. Theres good reason that SE has phil separated from politics. I don't think there's a strategic management SE, but if there were it would overlap very little with phil-SE
    – Rushi
    Commented Oct 30 at 0:16
  • Your added last paragraph is trivially tautologous: Take science articles (SA) and likewise NR, UN, MC, CR... Focus on any one, say MC. Since MC has little overlap with {SA, NR, UN, CR} therefore we should be apathetic to MC. Heres a counterexample for the edification of your soul
    – Rushi
    Commented Oct 30 at 3:50
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The one I like most is a simple question: Does the difference in view have any practical import?

If it does not make a difference to any of my interactions with "the world" (whatever that is supposed to mean) whether physicalism or idealism is true, or ontological pluralism vs. monism, why bother making a fuss over it?

This is an inherently philosophical take as it is the way of the Stoa, substantiated philosophically only in the late 19th and over the course of the 20th century by pragmatism and process oriented philosophies.

This presumes that rational discourse has met its limits already. It basically is a philosophical framework justifying an opt-out in that case. Jürgen Habermas developed a theory of communicative acts that included reasons for why the base of functional rational discourse is a discourse (and agreement) about the rules of discourse. That means that one could, as a first step, try to engage in a discourse about rules and structures of the debate. This includes questions like how one wants to determine truth, whether logical coherence is a must, what are reliable sources of knowledge, etc.

When these basics cannot be agreed upon, it should not surprise anyone that the debate derails at some point.

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  • It is a good idea, to try getting back on track by revisiting the ground rules. Thank you.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Nov 1 at 20:24
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If there is no agreed solution, ask what sort of evidence might you accept? What would a satisfactory proof look like? Or a convincing disproof?

Take for example of 'can machines think?. The Turing test was that if you were conversing with someone via a keyboard, and the replies were indistinguishable from a person, then whatever-it-was seemed to be intelligent and thinking like a person. At the time, this was a far-fetched idea. Now we see machine learning programs are uncannily good at aping humans, and they can fool us not with a typed response but with apparently live speech and video. We do not yet think they are intelligent. They are just pattern recognition systems that provide responses that are consistent with earlier responses that were well received at the time.

It seems likely a Turing experiment is unlikely to convince. Machine learning systems are going to become more convincing. They can already seem more authoritative than the average human because their grammar and and spelling are better (I had to check how to spell 'authoritative' because I had not spelled it before as far as I know). As AI gets better, we should become more sceptical.

The weird thing is, that when AI fails, it seems to fail in very human ways. Ask it to do a repetitive task forever, it becomes bored. Or hypnotised. If you calling a wrong answer, it can bluster and defend itself. Is this what intelligence is, or is it an imitation of what intelligence does? Or is this anthropomorphic projection from our side? It is hard to know.

Okay. What would a disproof look like? Can you come up with some sort of test that would prove something was not conscious? We would agree that something very simple is not intelligent. But modern machine lining software is just the endless repetition of many simple systems, from which the apparent intelligence seems to emerge.

This sort of argument seems to get us nowhere, but we do progress. We can see we may approach a point where complex machine learning systems and human intelligences are recognised to have common properties that we may label as belonging to 'intelligence'. Or maybe we will find that there are many forms of sophistication, and human-like intelligence is just one of them. Or maybe something quite different that I have not predicted.

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  • On rereading, this seems like a long investigation of one hypothetical case. But anyway, my approach is to assume the most conservative conclusion until proof shows otherwise: machines don't think, God isn't there, I'm not the only being, Descartes was just silly, etc. Prove it or lose it. The world has enough clutter and rubbish already without us dreaming up more. Assume the negative.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 31 at 11:59
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    Is 'machines don't think' a conservative opinion? That requires our brains to have something that a machine, however complex, cannot copy. Is there a God? IMHO that idea has all sorts of logical loose ends, and does not explain anything. We could all be in a simulation; without evidence, that explains nothing. Descartes chose the pineal gland as our brain's connection to the immaterial soul. It is a strange branch of the brain that seems to go nowhere. Wrong, but a worthy attempt for his day. If we go beyond the evidence, we ask what the proof or disproof might be like. it seems to help. Commented Oct 31 at 12:58
  • I'm not always sure that people (including myself) do much thinking either. But it seems that the bar to making assertions needs to be substantially raised. A lot less speech would help us hear the important statements better. There is a reason libraries are quiet.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 31 at 23:25
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    @ScottRowe A more serious personal and non philosophy answer you already know — Buddhism, non-duality etc. Western philosophy has dug its hole too deep to get out. You more than many others here, know the way has to be found elsewhere
    – Rushi
    Commented Nov 1 at 5:35
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    @ScottRowe Nothing like a bit of hard evidence. My favourite bit of comeuppance was a pundit in 1865 (can't find the reference, sorry) who said we may never know what the Sun is made of, or how it works because we cannot fly there and take a sample. Within three years science had identified many elements in the spectrum of the solar corona during a total eclipse, including a new one they called helium. Commented Nov 1 at 12:01
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First you must examine why these debates get intractable. In my experience, many of these debates are not about Truth, but about Power. This is why they cannot be resolved.

Why should people be so unreasonable? Because people want Power, yes, but why do they need such power over others? Because in the modern era, power has been usurped by a giant system. This "system" was called the "Establishment" back in the 70s and still exists -- through corporate ownership of media and co-option of the [American] military for use to maintain this system through fear and intimidation.

It is the System that has you, Neo.

As Godel showed (and [try to] correct me if you think I'm misapplying his theorem), there is never a way to create any conclusive, eternally-lasting statement. There is always a way to defeat a purely reasonable answer. Even if my statement here is true, one could theoretically defeat it to get back the power and authority of my assertion. But why take my power when I'm trying to help you understand this dynamic? This is what has happened to me many times on StackExchange.

So, if reason is insufficient to create a logical society, then what else must we rely on? Power (including violence or weaponized use of words) is one thing left in order for one to stay whole. The other is Love.

You stop attacking people's Truths because you've taken their power, or you can stop attacking people out of love. Take your pick. If you find that you can't accept a person's argument (Love), then you must examine yourself to see what stronghold of reason you're holding onto. There is some premise you're unwilling to let go of. Find out what it is, and call it out in the argument.

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    Yes. One premise I am unwilling to let go of is that a lot of stuff is unnecessary rubbish. Not at all worth fighting over. Someone could prove me wrong. Power struggles make sense in a fight for necessary things, but are most ideas necessary, or even functional?
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 31 at 23:33
  • @ScottRowe: Many ideas (/Truths) are necessary and functional in a healthy society, but WE DON'T HAVE THAT. We have kids that kill themselves. This is a strictly modern phenomenon that grew with postmodernism/relativism and the rise of atheistic tendencies that "defeated" logic that lasted for thousands of years. We don't have a better society after postmodernism. It is worse in every conceivable way, but one: the rise of a technology that allowed the presence of this contradictory logic whlist preserving neutrality. I'm talking about the computer and internet. Commented Oct 31 at 23:37
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    Maybe people should spend more time thinking about the welfare of children and less about solipsism or Descartes? Ethics seems quite missing from this site, for example.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented Oct 31 at 23:40
  • Superb. There was a famous televised debate between Chomsky and Foucault in the 70s. Chomsky sided with truth as truth (yeah tautology!). Foucault sided with power as truth. Because some semblance of respecting truth as truth was still the undergirding of the establishment then, the debate was possible. Today it would not be allowed. As Jordan Peterson pointed out in the 20th century people fought over differing opinions. In the 21st we fight over differing realities. Todays arguments are not arguments — they are talking past, then shouting and then bombing one another.
    – Rushi
    Commented Nov 1 at 3:00
  • In retrospect, Foucault was truthful; Chomsky was beautiful. Which shall we choose as our world reaches an inflection point?
    – Rushi
    Commented Nov 1 at 3:02
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Perhaps the aim of philosophy is not to reach consensus, but, as far as possible, to undermine consensus.

One aim, surely, is to investigate the biases or hidden assumptions, or hidden causes and conditions, of our own beliefs and opinions. What better way to do so than to take some belief someone has (or that we ourselves have) and try to investigate each and every consequence it has, in other words to try to derive the most extreme, barely logical conclusions from it? If two people do this, given the same source belief, it seems unlikely that they will naturally reach consensus.

The only shared principle in philosophical debate seems to be respect for logical validity. But this can by itself never be enough to reach consensus. Right? If otherwise everything is up for grabs -- and philosophers may even make fun of the holiest of holy values, to the chagrin of so-called religious people --, it's also not realistic to expect agreement to be reached. (Even agreement about logical principles is rather hard fought, sometimes.) The problem may be that there are no shared "precedent rulings" -- as in judicial debate --, there is also no shared philosophical "constitution" document that decribes what the goal of philosophy is. But even if there would be, it would surely become the target of multiple, conflicting interpretations... (Afterall, even the devout religious non-philosophers, who might have been expected to value agreement and community more, and who had established authorities to squash disagreement, couldn't help developing radically different, heretically different interpretations of their holy scriptures.)

And so it continues...

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    Whence and whither logical validity in the face of logical plurality? Logic is a very low grade, nuts-n-bolts matter. IMHO logic is not about reasoning per se but about externalizing (the programming term is serializing) the reasoning process. In human affairs it has little value compared to goodwill. When two people who share no common language but have mutual goodwill meet they find ways of communicating (Reminded: Fr. thomas Merton said: We talk too much of communication when what we seek is communion)\
    – Rushi
    Commented Nov 1 at 3:20
  • @Rushi - I don't really disagree with that. But the point I tried to make is that some kind of logical validity seems to be the only common denominator. We can also see in early philosophy, both in Greece and China for instance, that people are trying to explicitly formulate and grasp the rules for acceptable arguments on that extremely basic level of logic.
    – mudskipper
    Commented Nov 1 at 13:11
  • You could also say -- as both the early and late Wittgenstein seems to do -- that logic is built-in in our languages (and in the way we use language to interact with the world and others). Anyway, logic and language cannot be cleanly separated, I'd say.
    – mudskipper
    Commented Nov 1 at 13:17

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