- If someone claims that God is beyond logic then how do we know he is beyond logic ? (as we lose all the methods to know whether the claim is true or not?)
- Logic is the use and study of valid reasoning, while reason is the capacity for consciously making sense of things, applying logic, establishing and verifying facts, and changing or justifying practices, institutions, and beliefs based on new or existing information.Logic, scientific reasoning and observations (or experiences) are the methods which can be helpful comprehend God's nature . Without these methods how God can be intelligible?
It is often argued by supporters of the claim that
- Logic is a part of nature of God.
- Without God, nothing could have existence. God is the basis of all logic in reality and he is in no way inferior to logic. Logic comes from God, not God from logic. But when it comes to how we know things, logic is the basis of all thought, and it must come before any thought about anything, including God
- God possess infinite knowledge and the knowledge of humans is limited to their observations and their ability and capacity to reason.So, what seems superfluous and flawed may be true .
How these properties can be attributed to God if do not have any method (Logic, scientific reasoning and observations) to know if it is true or not?
( I am talking about God of monotheism and henotheism in which God is conceived as the Supreme Being and principal object of faith whose commonly included attributes are omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence.)
(The opposition of the above two points) God as supreme being. God governs logic, logic is not governed by God.
Within those who stipulate there is a God, I've seen 2 major approaches to this question:
1) Logic is subservient to God. If God, or one of his representatives says something or behaves a certain way, then it becomes de facto logical, even if it does not follow from normal rules of logic. (My opinion, for what it's worth, is this often leads to "logic" seeming arbitrary instead of being the bedrock for argumentation that it's supposed to be.)
2) God is not simply logical, God fundamentally is logic. This follows in the sense that God is existence itself, love itself, beauty itself, etc. This tradition (which follows from an Aquinas approach to God) would disagree with your statement that "As God possess infinite knowledge, he can break laws of logic."
The approach that this tradition usually takes is to say that we believe based on the evidence at hand that God is logical, but that because God is infinite, we cannot understand all that God does and thus some aspect of it remains a mystery (where "mystery" has a technical meaning).
I would add that the Christian tradition has equated God's reason with the second person of the Trinity ("en arche ein ho logos"). In understanding this question then, most Christian philosophers I've read have pointed to this fact and the corresponding thoughts on the Trinity to understand the different related questions you raised.
If we apply Russell’s theory of (definite) descriptions (“On Denoting” 1905) to the sentence “God is subject to logic”, it can be analysed into a conjunction of the following three:
- there is an x such that x is the creator of the universe: ∃x[CU(x)]
- for any x and y, if x is the creator of the universe and y is the creator of the universe, then x=y (i.e. there is at most one thing which is the creator of the universe): ∀x∀y[[CU(x) & CU(y)] → y=x]
- for every x that is the creator of the universe, x is subject to logic: ∀x[CU(x) → SL(x)]. More briefly put, the claim is that "God is subject to logic" says that some x is such that x is the creator of the universe, and that any y is the creator of the universe only if y = x, and that x is subject to logic: ∃x[CU(x) & ∀y[CU(y) → y=x] & SL(x)]
This is false, since it is not the case that some x is the creator of the universe. (hehe!)
Here comes the ultra metaphysics opponent!
I am sorry I can not with sorry understand what you are saying.
Is God subject to logic? My questions about this claim are 1) If God is beyond logic then how do we know he is beyond logic? 2)Logic is the use and study of valid reasoning,
At 1) You are defining that God is beyond logic so that God is beyond logic. Then when we are asked how do we know he is beyond logic?? I am sorry since you defined as above in the first part of speech that God is beyond logic, there is no way for me to know how he is beyond logic since 1) you defined it yourself so, 2) Logic is human product ( thus, if God is beyond logic, we can not say anything. )
God is the basis of all logic in reality and he is in no way inferior to logic. Logic comes from God, not God from logic. But when it comes to how we know things, logic is the basis of all thought, and it must come before any thought about anything, including God3) As the God is omniscience, he can break laws of logic.
is virtually same. Or rather more correctly saying, you are contradicting yourself. You said at first God is beyond logic. Then how do you think God bestowed men with logic? There should be no connection between God and man if you define so.
And you second question, I am not sure what you mean by valid reasoning.
A young Hegelian's thought about Christianity. ( 1841 )
Man’s notion of himself is his notion of God, just as his notion of God is his notion of himself – the two are identical. What is God to man, that is man’s own spirit, man’s own soul; what is man’s spirit, soul, and heart – that is his God. God is the manifestation of man’s inner nature, his expressed self; religion is the solemn unveiling of man’s hidden treasures, the avowal of his innermost thoughts, the open confession of the secrets of his love.
To Metaphysicians, I recommend you to step down to the earth from the sky! if you would like to talk something about logic. This has been discussed since back in early 19'th! I think you should know.
As a very basic lower bound, I would suggest the following counter questions:
If someone claims that a person is beyond logic then how do we know he is beyond logic ? (as we lose all the methods to know whether the claim is true or not?)
Logic is the use and study of valid reasoning, while reason is the capacity for consciously making sense of things, applying logic, establishing and verifying facts, and changing or justifying practices, institutions, and beliefs based on new or existing information.Logic, scientific reasoning and observations (or experiences) are the methods which can be helpful comprehend a person's nature . Without these methods how a person can [sic] be intelligible?
If these questions are not sufficient to expound on the nature of a person, why would one believe it is sufficient to expound on God? Likewise, if it is "mostly true, but there are some catches," is it not reasonable that the lower bound for the answer regarding God is also "mostly true, but there are some catches?"
A related point of discussion would be the logic of "love."
Many of the answers here assume that humans are capable of understanding all logic. Just as I can't explain algebra to my dog, there is assuredly logic that is far beyond what we are capable of understanding. In fact, not only beyond our understanding, but outside what is conveyable by our language (just like the dog example). God is absolutely adhering to and in control of that logic whether it can even be described in human terms or not.
I believe your analysis of "logic" is in error. Logic isn't the study of reasoning as such (which is the domain of Psychology) but rather the study of validity (or equivalently Consequence). Validity isn't constrained by human reasoning, but by the world. We have theories of logic, which we construct in our attempts to process the world and help us to make something intelligible out of what we encounter and observe, but validity itself is something we theorize about and that we latch on to by virtue of our evolutionary adaptation to it, rather than something we as human agents either have as a cognitive tool or as an inherited trait.
God might well be beyond the scope of human reasoning, but that alone isn't sufficient to support the claim that God is beyond logic, which would require the further premise that God is not part of the world.
Logic is the deduction of definitions. To say something can violate logic is like saying X != X.
Example: If X is a rectangle, then it must have four straight sides by definition. Can God create a rectangle that doesn't have four straight sides?
I think that you have to define God before you can determine if logic applies to him/her/it/them, then the answer might become self-evident.
For example, if Stargate, Ancient Aliens, or the like tell us anything, "God" is just a metaphor for beings from another world with science sufficiently advanced that the people of the time did not understand it in the slightest.
However, if God is an omnipresent, omniscient, powerful being similar to the nano robots in the TV show Revolution, you have a different set of circumstances. Wiki on the show
If God is a truely divine being, and we can use the description given when Tanis, Hal-Elven stand before Takhisis the Evil Dragon Godess, where he is overcome by her divinity and worships her even though he hates her and has been trying for several books to try to kill her and prevent her plans from coming to fruition. This is a reference to the War of the Lance series of the Dragonlance books by Margert Weis and Tracy Hickman. Wiki article on the War of the Lance
In the examples I have given, logic would apply to all of the gods referenced. It would be a strange phenomenon indeed if logic did not apply to a supreme being. Probably the embodiment of chaos.
The Mind is under constant duress to understand the reality it finds itself in. In the attempt, The Mind must contemplate the notion of omnipresence. We must assume 'he' is beyond logic - else we must redefine what God means.
Is the concept of a God logical? Do we have no choice but to ponder whether one must exist?
My problem is not whether God is subject to logic, but whether God is subject to time.
My mind must believe that he must be - lest my reality break down.
To answer the question, one has to make distinction between human logic and Divine Logic.
If the question is - is God subject to human logic? The answer is no.
If the question is - is God subject to Divine Logic? The answer is yes.
Divine Logic is God's Nature. Human logic is what we use to try to understand (give/find meaning to) God and His creation.
The best analogy I can come up with is my children and I. There has been a number of times when my children have thought that I was acting illogically. However, this was the result of their limited experience and knowledge of the situation. Similarly, we might think that God is acting illogically (as we understand the situation). However, from the point of view of Divine Logic, it is perfectly logical, but because of our limited knowledge, we don't "see" it. So we conclude that God is not subject to logic!
According to Richard Swinburne's paper "Omnipotence , God is omnipotent but he has limited his omnipotence in such a way that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature.J L Mackie in his paper Evil and Omnipotence  attempts to resolve the issue by by distinguishing between first-order omnipotence (unlimited power to act) and second-order omnipotence (unlimited power to determine what powers to act things shall have).An omnipotent being with both first and second-order omnipotence at a particular time might restrict its own power to act.For instance,
- Can God lie?(If he lies he is not omnibenevolent , If he does not then he is not omnipotent) Yes.
- Will he? No.
- Why? It is not possible according to his nature.
Likewise,God is beyond logic but he binds himself by causal or logical laws.So, God has made him subject to logic by restricting his omnipotence.(God's omnipotence must in any case be restricted in one way or another, that unqualified omnipotence cannot be ascribed to any being that continues through time)  (http://www.ditext.com/mackie/evil.html)
protected by Community♦ Apr 2 '15 at 16:33
Thank you for your interest in this question.
Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).
Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?