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If God is immanent, then with whatever means you are about to prove existence of god, is itself a form of God or a complete subset aspect of God itself (as God is immanent). Then, isn't the means of proofs, which one has already established as existent entities indirectly established one aspect of God as existence & attempting to prove God of different aspect presuming God is existing, implicitly?

One may argue -

One can establish an existence of clay by seeing a clay pot.

I would argue -

But you are not presuming clay to be immanent (or the one which alone exists, though in different forms); On presuming Clay is immanent which alone exists in different forms, isn't presuming existence of the Pot implicitly proved existence of clay because clay alone exists (clay is immanent)? Then, any attempt to prove existence of clay using clay pot is futile because one has already presumed clay pot as an existent (which is a form of clay). Further, the one who is attempting to prove is too a form of clay because clay is immanent. In other words, it would be like a situation where a clay vessel 1 is proving clay by using clay vessel 2.

Following above analogy, Proving God by any means presuming God is immanent (or it alone exists) seems circular reasoning to me because it is an attempt where a form of God is proving God by means which are also form of God.

So, Is it the case that one can't prove god by any means presuming if it exists, it must be immanent?

  • The English is pretty broken here. Can you get someone to fix it? – virmaior Nov 10 '17 at 4:42
  • @virmaior Okay, I will try. sorry. – Mr. Sigma. Nov 10 '17 at 4:44
  • Ignore my last comment if you got a notification, I obviously misread what you were saying. But in general I agree with the sentiment that your analogy of the clay pot becomes really muddy and confusing towards the end and I am not sure that the question is very coherent as a result. – Not_Here Nov 10 '17 at 7:57
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I'm not following the "imminent" and "clay" analogy. About the God or Creative intelligence of the Universe... It seems that people assume they understand what it is and what is going on and they are sure that whatever their conception is cannot possibly exist, or they are sure that it must exist. The naysayers are often just as rigid and certain of their conception of the world as any fanatical religious person. I'm not sure that high levels of certainty about it, either way, is justified or makes sense. It seems that they would need to have a conception of what it is to say that it does not exist. Perhaps whatever they are assuming about it is incorrect. It could be one of those possibilities that we just can't rule out. There are lots of little possibilities that we just can't rule out. There could be something going on that we have no way of conceiving for some reason. Not knowing for sure could be part of a test. It makes me suspicious though something is going on even though I'm not consciously aware of what it is right now. Even if you don't know, you can act "as if" there is something beautiful and divine in the universe, whatever it might be. If it does exist, I love it, because this really is a beautiful and amazing world. When I accept that as a possibility it can be very beautiful, and it can be an adaptive coping mechanism for many people, so I don't discourage people from believing in it. Although sometimes I change my mind about it depending on how things are going and my mood.

If this life were some an ethics test to see what your actual nature is or how you might respond to this situation, it would seem that not knowing for sure could be an essential element of the test, couldn't it? That could be why we are blocked everywhere we go from having the answer or only have a little trickle of hints and ongoing mysteries. People behave differently when they know that they are being watched and evaluated. That could be a little clue.

For all you know you haven't been put in a world simulator 20 minutes ago in some future world with all your memories implanted and so forth, and you are being given all sorts of little ethics tests as part of a job interview or something. You could be a robot and scientists in some other world are observing whether you are safe to exist in their real world. Or it could be an ethics test for the scientists, and there is something above them testing to see how they would behave if they thought they had the power to make a consciousness. What sorts of things would they consider when creating life? How much care and thought would you like your Creator to put into your existence if there is one? It could be a game you have to figure out. Perhaps it is some form of entertainment or a learning module.

We don't know, or perhaps I should say, I don't know. I don't know whatever you know. We or I can only speculate about these sorts of things right now. The possibilities are endless, and it seems to be a similar thing with the idea of a Creator or creative intelligence behind the universe. If there is something that could create this world and everything, it seems it would beyond our present capacity or normal level of consciousness to comprehend whatever that is. If it did exist, it could make itself known or not known at any time, and even if the answer were right in front of you, you might not see it if it didn't want you to see it or you might forget about it. There is so much that people assume.

It does seem very suspicious though sometimes and it does feel as though there is a beautiful, powerful, loving presence with me that occasionally makes itself known to me, so I don't rule it out. Beautiful things like music, love, art, dogs, consciousness, and so on all seem in some ways like clues that there is something incredible and beyond my current comprehension going on. I don't know what it is. It could be a little flood of chemicals in my brain or a delusion, but the experience of the presence does seem to happen in response to things I am thinking about, and I like the idea of it. It feels incredible when it happens. It is a distinct experience for me, so I act as if it is something--a little imaginary friend in my mind perhaps, a helpful Jiminy Cricket who applauds good things. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm not religious about it though. Many people report that it is helpful. It seems to like it when I think about it or talk to it privately in my mind. Sometimes I have a few choice words for it when it doesn't do what I want though.

But the way things sometimes unfold just seems to be a giveaway, and thinking about the mysteries of the world can lead to that sort of thinking, but you can't be sure. There is much conflicting information to sort through, and there are countless possibilities out there that can confuse us and possibly misdirect us. That seems to be the game. So I keep an open mind about it.

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