Formal versus Objective Reality in Descartes

Question

Descartes seems to define an idea as a representational mode of thought, a mode of thought which represents a certain object. For instance, the idea of the sun is a mode of thought which represents the sun, a certain 'object' in the world.

He goes on to give us a distinction between the objective reality and the formal reality of an idea. The objective reality is the reality of the representational content of the idea; every idea is the idea of something, it represents something. But the formal reality is the reality of the idea as it is itself something; every idea is something in itself.

The problem is clear. If an idea is by definition a representational mode of thought, then what does it mean to say that 'every idea is something in itself'? It is true--but isn't this 'something' a representation of an object? When we speak of an idea's formal reality, are we not therefore speaking of its objective reality, because there is no substantial distinction between the two. Of course an idea is a mental act, but in what way can this act be distinguished from its representational content?

Answer 1

Interesting and nagging problem. But recall Gassendi :

You do in fact.. .distinguish between objective and formal reality, where 'formal reality,' as I understand it, applies to the idea itself not as it represents something but as an entity in its own. (J. Cottingham et al., 'The Philosophical Writings of Descartes, II, Cambridge : CUP, 199.

I should say that 'formal' and 'objective' refer to modes of being. The formal reality of an idea is its occurrence or existence in the mind. The objective reality of an idea is relational; an idea has objective reality if its representational content has the right relation to reality. The formal reality need have no reality of representational content, indeed I can't see how it would make sense to say that it did have - simply as an occurrence or existence.

An idea can be defined as a representational mode of thought; as representational it is objective. But it can also be referred to, not in respect of the reality of its representational content but merely as existing or occurring in my mind qua idea. As merely existing or occurring it cannot have any representational content of reality or of anything else.

Let me try a comparison to make my point. A photograph is an object with representational reality. But qua (merely) object on my desk it has mere existence or occurrence. It has and can have, qua object on my desk, no representational reality whatever. You can draw the correspondences with the argument above.

Descartes' works are voluminous as are the Replies. There's much I may have missed. I can't see, without being dogmatic however, that Descartes does face the problem with which you confront him. Clever, attentive question though !

Answer 2

An "Item" is independent from "The Ideological Representation of the Item" in an Idea," as 2 distinct entities.

Descartes uses the distinction between an "Item" and an "Item's Ideological Representation" in Objective Reality to prove these 2 entities are Independent of each other and exist separately.

Then uses the Independence between the two entities (proven by Objective Reality) as justification in Formal Logic (formal reality) to Qualify "An Idea (Representation of an Item)" as Extant.(existss)

The Representation of the Item in an Idea according to Formal Logic, is in fact SOMETHING because it has a mode of being, even if only as an intangible representation of an "Item."

***-"An Idea (The Representation of the Item)" exists because it is distinct from its associated "Item" and has a mode of being :Intangible being. [In the mind of the Subject(s) thinking of the representation of the Item]

Descartes' Example: -"The (representation of an item) Idea of God Exists.Therefore God exists to some degree. [Even if only in the minds of its Adherents.]

My Example ."The (representation of an Item) Idea of the Absence of value" exists and can be denoted by the number 0."

Answer 3

I agree with the above comments. Similar to these comments, I would define objective reality as the interaction of objects, persons, or events independent of the thoughts of the observer. I would define formal reality, ideas themselves, probably more in terms of specific patterns of neural communication. So objective reality would be in relation to each particular individual. Formal reality would be different for each individual as well, to the degree that their life experiences also differed. To the degree animals also have awareness of their surroundings, one might also argue that formal reality, albeit to a much lesser degree compared to humans, also exists within the neural circuitry of many animals.

Answer 4

This is very interesting. I would like to add that there is an incompleteness here that I think is worth spelling out.

To say that an idea is something, and not just a representation which would demand one say "of what", is to my mind from reading Descartes, answered by saying the mind is a thinking thing. For if we accept that ideas have objective reality, then the idea cannot get this reality from the mode of its activity as an idea of the mind, but must derive it from its actuality as a thinking thing capable of having ideas. I believe other consequences follow from this too that are highly important such as the minds eternity and god's existence.