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I am not thinking of any passage of Nietzsche's in particular. However, it's well known he valued pain for what it brings about in some people. But then I'm told he didn't valorise it, which I suppose means it has no intrinsic value.

So is he saying that some or all people should suffer more?

I may as well say that what I personally feel right now is that I - whoever I am - and really I don't know - should help other people with their suffering, and just hope that someday my own will cease to matter to me.

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    One's pain caused by suffering as private mental state is said to like beetles in a box by some philosophers such as Wittgenstein thus can only be abstractly conceived by others but never can actually be perceived by others. However, perhaps suffering is much easier to be perceived as the legendary story of how Siddhattha Gotama got enlightened by seeing and perceiving many gigantic sufferings of other people on his four trips as a prince... Jun 24 at 5:37
  • That makes sense, but suggests it would be less possible to help others own their pain than it would be to alleviate it. I doubt Wittgenstein believed that anaesthetics don't work @DoubleKnot
    – pained
    Jun 24 at 5:50
  • I never saw or heard people discussing Wittgenstein's view on anaesthetics thus no reference to endorse or reject... Or possibly after Siddhattha Gotama got enlightened he realized maybe the real anaesthetics is to teach people how to correct their previous mental state since there may not exist real hypostasize of these mental states at all... Jun 24 at 6:05
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    I don't think Gotama is suggesting people wish away their pain or close their eyes to it even. Please, let's stick to Nietzsche: did he seek to create pain, due to his belief it could be constructive?
    – pained
    Jun 24 at 6:14
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    Of course it's not that easy simply wishing away since there's still a distance from the "hypostasize" to "mental states". And as for Nietzsche, suffering is not just something that happens to us – it is bound up in who we are as creatures that grow and change: “all becoming and growing,” Nietzsche wrote somewhere, “all that guarantees the future, postulates pain.”, "To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.", so seems to me he's valuing and not afraid of pain, but not necessarily to seek to create pain... Jun 24 at 6:26

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The most directly relevant statement he makes is probably

“To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities—I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not—that one endures.” -from The Will To Power (which it must be noted is a controversial text, as it was compiled by his sister from notebooks towards supporting the Nazis)

He also said

“Only great pain, the long, slow pain that takes its time... compels us to descend to our ultimate depths... I doubt that such pain makes us "better"; but I know it makes us more profound... In the end, lest what is most important remain unsaid: from such abysses, from such severe sickness, one returns newborn, having shed one's skin... with merrier senses, with a second dangerous innocence in joy, more childlike and yet a hundred times subtler than one has ever been before.” -The Gay Science

And

“Out of life’s school of war—what doesn’t kill me, makes me stronger.” -Twilight of the Idols

I would look to Nietzsche as advocating that being an ‘overgoer’ means risking being a down-goer - to cross the abyss we must relish the hazard, the danger of suffering. Discussed here: Trying to Understand Quote by Nietzsche

I would suggest that is parallel to going ‘beyond good and evil’; that we need to go beyond the dictates of pain and pleasure, towards other higher values goals and motivations. But not by numbing ourselves or ignoring the pain.

Nietzsche rejected limiting our desires in order to limit suffering, and advocated embracing tragedy - that the quality of a story is not defined by how happily it ends, which surely every story teller knows.

“In pain there is as much wisdom as in pleasure: like the latter it is one of the best self preservatives of a species.” -The Gay Science

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  • Well, I agree with all you said, but I'm not sure it answered my question enough. Maybe you lacked directness, maybe it's the short format. Dunno
    – pained
    Jun 26 at 2:01
  • @pained: Saying it has no intrinsic value is not saying it has no value. Learn from it, build your story with it, make yourself more profound and stronger by not numbing yourself to it or avoiding it. He as ever challenges our intuitions & unthought verities.
    – CriglCragl
    Jun 26 at 2:47

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