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In the answer to the question on what religion is, I wrote

We, each of us individually, feel a sense of self worth, a sense that something of great value will be lost if we cease to be.

This led to another question that occurred to me but I don't know the answer to: does committing suicide imply that a person does not have his own sense of self-worth? Is a suicide someone who simply lacks the sense that he is an intrinsically valuable part of the universe, or is it instead an act of deliberate vandalism? Does he understand that he is destroying something of great value and chooses to do so?

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    To the person who voted to close, what personal philosophy do you think I am pushing here? Mar 24 at 0:56
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    I think this is an empirical question in the domain of behavioral psychology, not philosophy. Plenty of people self-report their motivations before suicide, or survive suicide to self-report. Measurement beats model every time.
    – g s
    Mar 24 at 1:12
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    The very question is the direct rebuttal to the idea that everyone actually does "feel a sense of self worth, a sense that something of great value will be lost if we cease to be". Unless one accepts the very convoluted idea that people commit suicide out of vandalism, "for the lolz" so to speak.
    – armand
    Mar 24 at 2:16
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    @DavidGudeman I understand this, no worries. It's just that many people self report their motivations for suicide (or attempt) when I never heard of someone wanting to do it for the sake of destroying value. A cursory look at the topic shows to the contrary that those people don't feel like they have inate value (as also do many people who don't commit suicide). The idea that we all feel to have great value seems to be projection.
    – armand
    Mar 24 at 2:29
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    Your question comes from a specific point of view. It is reasonable, and no doubt shared by many people. But it seems to me inappropriate to generalize that approach to all suicides. There are other points of view from which suicide can appear very different. It may be required by one's moral code, as, notoriously, in the traditional Japanese code of honour. The individual's point of view should be the basis for understanding what they do. Perhaps this should be a psychological, rather than a philosophical question.
    – Ludwig V
    Mar 24 at 10:37

4 Answers 4

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Is a suicide someone who simply lacks the sense that he is an intrinsically valuable part of the universe, or is it instead an act of deliberate vandalism? Does he understand that he is destroying something of great value and chooses to do so?

Suicide is perceived to be a solution to hopelessly overwhelming problems. Just go to sleep forever and escape it all. It's not a desire to die but a lack of any desire to continue living. From a value perspective, they feel as if they are worth more dead than alive and feel everyone will get over their death quickly (if anyone is affected at all). The reasons for these feelings are unique and personal. Many times, it's a result of a mental illness that needs drug and counseling therapy. Rarely is it an act of vandalism.

The solution to hopelessly overwhelming problems is to ask for help. All storms pass.

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You seem to be asking whether it is ever rational to kill yourself. I am pro euthanasia in cases of extreme physical/sensual suffering, but not for mental discomfort (which I have experienced) or shame etc. (which I have not). I think in the case of physical suffering, the "act of vandalism" (which is a good phrase) can be seen more like an act of self defence against an assailant intent on overwhelming you with unbearable pain. In no way does that limit or reduce the value of the (or anyone's) human life.

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A useful exercise might be to consider different typical types of suicides:

  • Terminally ill people in pain
  • People with depression or PTSD
  • People who just lost most of their wealth
  • People facing trial, prison, torture
  • People with sexual traits not accepted in their society
  • Self-sacrificing soldiers or terrorists as attack
  • Honor suicides (e.g. Seppuku)

The initial examples are all about escaping ongoing or imminent suffering, and are unrelated to self-worth.

The last two examples are related to self-value, but might be summarized as sacrifice for some perceived greater value than the own life, showing the alternatives offered by the OP to be too limited.

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We, each of us individually, feel a sense of self worth, a sense that something of great value will be lost if we cease to be.

Some of us do. Some of us have a more moderate sense of value, and many of us feel as though we have very little value, if any at all. For many of us, our sense of value comes not from a sense of ourselves as valuable to ourselves, but as valuable to others, especially if others depend upon us. When we are isolated, we can easily lose this sense of value, and lose our sense of self worth in turn.

Does committing suicide imply that a person does not have his own sense of self-worth?

Not necessarily. Whilst a lack of a sense of self-worth is probably integral to the decision of many to kill themselves, it is also quite conceivable that a person can have a sense of self worth but feel that no-one else shares this sense; that their value is unacknowledged by others. They may feel misunderstood, neglected, perhaps unfairly disparaged. A sense of being unjustly treated, ignored and/or misunderstood can prove extremely detrimental to mental wellbeing. Combine this sense of neglect with a sense of isolation, frustration and/or resentment and the act of suicide can become an act of protest; a cry of "why can't you see me for who I am?", or "why do you ignore me? I have a lot to give! Why should I persevere?".

Is a suicide someone who simply lacks the sense that he is an intrinsically valuable part of the universe, or is it instead an act of deliberate vandalism? Does he understand that he is destroying something of great value and chooses to do so?

I'm not sure I have the sense that I am an 'intrinsically valuable part of the universe'. I make this personal statement not to invite sympathy (I feel immensely lucky), but to express that it is quite possible for a person to not hold to 'intrinsic value' without feeling suicidal. The converse is also true; that it is entirely possible to feel as though one is an intrinsically valuable part of the universe, and to be suicidal nonetheless, as mentioned earlier.

As for vandalism, many people contemplating suicide might share a similar sentiment; a destructive impulse which again belongs to the realms of protest, anger and abdication. Note though that the act of suicide can be the result of neither proposition; ie. that a person can have a sense of value and kill themselves but do so in a way that is not motivated by vandalism, but by other reasons including exhaustion, loneliness, pain, insanity and fear.

It is sometimes assumed by people (and I'm not suggesting you're doing this), that the person who commits suicide is a priori irrational, but this is far from the case. Suicidality, in many circumstances, is a very rational, comprehensible (if tragic) impulse, and acknowledging this fact is very important when dealing with the suicidal, because to label them irrational is to in a way deny their tremendous suffering and may contribute to any sense they have of being misunderstood.

Does a suicide understand what he is doing?

There is no one-size fits all answer to this. Some people kill themselves in the throes of delusion. Others have a severely (medically) inhibited sense of themselves thanks to altered serotonin levels in their brains. Others have even been emotionally manipulated into suicide. Many kill themselves whilst under the influence of mind-altering substances which augment negative emotions and /or reduce inhibition. But it must be acknowledged that many do so out of sheer desperation, out of an inability to solve the problems that plague them. Many of these people in turn do it knowing precisely what they're doing - including harming those who care for them - but because they see no other option; no other means of escape.

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  • i disagree with a fair amount of what you say here. fear is not rationally responded to with suicide, which is not the same as immoral etc.. if human nature lacks intrinsic value, then what? imvvho sentient life is mostly just junk
    – user65174
    Mar 24 at 12:08
  • @zero. Fear as a motivation for suicide does not need to be rational, although it certainly can be. And just because you feel as though human nature has intrinsic value, such consideration can be utterly irrelevant to the person caught in the throes of depression. Mar 24 at 12:10
  • i disagree. mental pain is never sufficient for a rational suicide, not when it's due to illness rather than extreme ongoing persecution or torture. not to sound flippant, but in the absence of reality, i think anyone is capable of processing even the worst depressions, with enough time
    – user65174
    Mar 24 at 12:13
  • @zero. We're at loggerheads here. A certain degree of mental pain, in my view - and as you actually acknowledge with 'persecution and torture' - is clear and obvious evidence for rational suicide. This is not to say that the suicide option is a desirable state of affairs. Mar 24 at 12:15
  • you are probably more likely to die from a shark attack than be tortured. i don't feel we are at loggerheads exactly, just in disagreement. i wonder what relevance the idea of the redundancy of most sensation has to play
    – user65174
    Mar 24 at 12:18

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