Skip to main content
added 213 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54

But to say that equivalent physical structures could happen without consciousness is to fundamentally misunderstand or misrepresent identity theory, because identity theory says literally the exact opposite of that - identity theory says that mental states are identical to certain physical states, so oneyou can't existhave those physical states without the otherhaving mental states. What they're saying is essentially "if we assume"since identity theory is false, then evolution wouldn'tcan't explain identity theory", which is meaningless and nonsensical circularity.

As noted above, the paper has a similar issue of trying to separate mental states from physical states in an argument against a worldview where those are one and the same.

But to say that physical structures could happen without consciousness is to fundamentally misunderstand or misrepresent identity theory, because identity theory says literally the exact opposite of that - identity theory says that mental states are identical to physical states, so one can't exist without the other. What they're saying is essentially "if we assume identity theory is false, then evolution wouldn't explain identity theory", which is meaningless and nonsensical circularity.

But to say that equivalent physical structures could happen without consciousness is to fundamentally misunderstand or misrepresent identity theory, because identity theory says literally the exact opposite of that - identity theory says that mental states are identical to certain physical states, so you can't have those physical states without having mental states. What they're saying is essentially "since identity theory is false, evolution can't explain identity theory", which is meaningless and nonsensical circularity.

As noted above, the paper has a similar issue of trying to separate mental states from physical states in an argument against a worldview where those are one and the same.

added 1690 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54

Dcleve's answer

It's probably worth pointing out that Dcleve's "brief summary" of identity theory and functionalism is little more than their opinion of misrepresentations of those positions, and they just keep repeating their dubious unsupported claims, while seeming to ignore any clear evidence against their claims and requests for them to back up what they say.

Later they mention the idea that "SOME examples of a physical or functional feature are identical to SOME aspects of consciousness" (which is actually what both identity theory and functionalism are, rather than the misrepresentation they address initially of every physical or functional feature being identical to some aspect of consciousness). On this, they say:

As equivalent physical structures or functional events could happen and be evolutionary beneficial without consciousness, or with an irrelevant consciousness associated with them, token-token identity breaks the evolutionary explanation for the tuning of consciousness that each of the above Identity Theories offered.

But to say that physical structures could happen without consciousness is to fundamentally misunderstand or misrepresent identity theory, because identity theory says literally the exact opposite of that - identity theory says that mental states are identical to physical states, so one can't exist without the other. What they're saying is essentially "if we assume identity theory is false, then evolution wouldn't explain identity theory", which is meaningless and nonsensical circularity.

Dcleve's answer

It's probably worth pointing out that Dcleve's "brief summary" of identity theory and functionalism is little more than their opinion of misrepresentations of those positions, and they just keep repeating their dubious unsupported claims, while seeming to ignore any clear evidence against their claims and requests for them to back up what they say.

Later they mention the idea that "SOME examples of a physical or functional feature are identical to SOME aspects of consciousness" (which is actually what both identity theory and functionalism are, rather than the misrepresentation they address initially of every physical or functional feature being identical to some aspect of consciousness). On this, they say:

As equivalent physical structures or functional events could happen and be evolutionary beneficial without consciousness, or with an irrelevant consciousness associated with them, token-token identity breaks the evolutionary explanation for the tuning of consciousness that each of the above Identity Theories offered.

But to say that physical structures could happen without consciousness is to fundamentally misunderstand or misrepresent identity theory, because identity theory says literally the exact opposite of that - identity theory says that mental states are identical to physical states, so one can't exist without the other. What they're saying is essentially "if we assume identity theory is false, then evolution wouldn't explain identity theory", which is meaningless and nonsensical circularity.

Mod Moved Comments To Chat
added 90 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54
  • My car has been stolen.
  • Any one of 8 billion people could've stolen my car, or it could've been magic (and we consider P(stolen|person) versus P(stolen|magic)).
  • It's unlikely that any of some 7.9 billion people would've stolen the car, on account of not being anyanywhere near the vicinity at the time.
  • Let's consider people living in my city. For one such person, we have video evidence of them breaking into my car and driving away with it. If we suppose they stole it, this does a good job of explaining where my car went...
  • But, I have "no reason to think that this highly specific city person should cover a large fraction of the person region of our probability space" (i.e. it's just 1 of billions of people, which is a small probability).
  • So "we can't infer that P(stolen|person) is high".
  • Therefore it was probably magic.

This is always going to be the problem with trying to use Bayesian probability in this way. You can't use Bayesian probability and just handwave the probabilities of dependent states (theism and atheism). Those probabilities are absolutely crucial to the comparison they're trying to make.

  • My car has been stolen.
  • Any one of 8 billion people could've stolen my car, or it could've been magic (and we consider P(stolen|person) versus P(stolen|magic)).
  • It's unlikely that any of some 7.9 billion people would've stolen the car, on account of not being any near the vicinity at the time.
  • Let's consider people living in my city. For one such person, we have video evidence of them breaking into my car and driving away with it. If we suppose they stole it, this does a good job of explaining where my car went...
  • But, I have "no reason to think that this highly specific city person should cover a large fraction of the person region of our probability space" (i.e. it's just 1 of billions of people, which is a small probability).
  • So "we can't infer that P(stolen|person) is high".
  • Therefore it was probably magic.

This is always going to be the problem with trying to use Bayesian probability in this way. You can't use Bayesian probability and just handwave the probabilities of dependent states (theism and atheism).

  • My car has been stolen.
  • Any one of 8 billion people could've stolen my car, or it could've been magic (and we consider P(stolen|person) versus P(stolen|magic)).
  • It's unlikely that any of some 7.9 billion people would've stolen the car, on account of not being anywhere near the vicinity at the time.
  • Let's consider people living in my city. For one such person, we have video evidence of them breaking into my car and driving away with it. If we suppose they stole it, this does a good job of explaining where my car went...
  • But, I have "no reason to think that this highly specific city person should cover a large fraction of the person region of our probability space" (i.e. it's just 1 of billions of people, which is a small probability).
  • So "we can't infer that P(stolen|person) is high".
  • Therefore it was probably magic.

This is always going to be the problem with trying to use Bayesian probability in this way. You can't use Bayesian probability and just handwave the probabilities of dependent states (theism and atheism). Those probabilities are absolutely crucial to the comparison they're trying to make.

added 21 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54
Loading
added 21 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54
Loading
added 3 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54
Loading
added 1462 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54
Loading
added 3605 characters in body
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54
Loading
Source Link
NotThatGuy
  • 14k
  • 1
  • 23
  • 54
Loading