8

I'm trying to learn what the stakes are in the realism vs anti-realism debate across science, mathematics, and everything really. Is it the case an anti-realist (about scientific objects, mathematical objects, moral facts, etc) can't fully grasp knowledge realists are grasping?

This question can be seen as loosely building from my other question here where we are told by the wonderful Conifold, "It is a general principle for all knowledge" that [specific prior knowledge is required for acquiring other specific knowledge] (me). Or, just take the titular question as-is if that's clearer. My earlier question suggests certain knowledge is necessary to reach other knowledge in the chain of inquiry. Well, now I'm wondering if mindset/psychology as far as realist and anti-realist is necessary in the inquiry for certain knowledge. In general, we know mindset/psychology plays some role--I've been told in social psych that depressed people have a slightly more accurate conceptions of the world, however they still have bias, it's just negative, whereas non-depressed people have a slightly higher bias, but it's more positive. That doesn't preclude either party on the depressed-non-depressed axis, it's more of a trend. I'm wondering about something necessary, a pre-requisite, along the realism-anti-realism axis. But if nothing so strong can be said, a general trend would suffice I suppose.

^This question is something I've been wondering about since this question of mine: Godel, "If, however, it is a question of objects that exist independently of our constructions, there is nothing in the least absurd in the existence of totalities containing members". This is Godel speaking about impredicative definitions not being the least bit absurd if the objects are real. Absurd is quite a strong word could hint at precluding knowledge if one is not realist about mathematical objects. But fictionalists can do the same math as Godel did, so maybe being absurd isn't a high enough bar to preclude knowledge... This is just for some extra context if anyone's curious.

1

3 Answers 3

5

The OPs question is whether "a realist mindset" is required to grasp some forms of knowledge. I take it that this also includes: Is a realist mindset necessary for -- or at least more conducive to -- making particular new discoveries?

I do not have an answer to the OPs question, but the very same question (or cluster of questions) is addressed by Hao Wang in his book From Mathematics to Philosophy (1974).

TL;DR Wang presents Kurt Gödel's answer, which is that a realist (objectivist, platonist) mindset was indeed necessary as general mental attitude and "philosophical view" for his major discoveries.

The importance of this answer, I think, is that it (1) comes from an authoritative source, someone who did indeed make some amazing, important discoveries in logic and metamathematic, and (2) that is indicates very specific reasons why Gödel thought this "attitude" was required. This is a vivid, concrete illustration of what @Conifold referred to (in one of the comments above) as ".. but interpretations may affect creative, connotational and motivational aspects" - but it is a stronger statement I believe. (But note the emotive colors in Gödels reply: "blindess", "prejudice", "preposterous" other views.)

Hao Wang's book is an introduction to the philosophy of mathematics and a self-criticism of academic analytic philosophy, in particular (but not exclusively) of logical positivism and linguistic philosophy (Wittgenstein and his epigones). Wang's purpose is to try to make philosophical research and debate more serious and relevant (for actual work in math and logic, for science and society in general). "Serious" implies more careful in its expositions, explanations and interpretations; it implies not trivializing or dismissing out of hand gross facts of human knowledge and experience (including introspective experience).

Wang was a personal friend of Gödel and he quotes from a letter that Gödel sent him, precisely about this question. Since the book may be relatively unaccessible to many, I will just quote most of the passage (found in the introduction section "Against Positivism", page 8-9). I'll use "(...)" to indicate parts that I left out. Brackets like "〔...〕" indicate an insertion that I added. Italics are from the original text. (Note that the double-quote margin indicates Gödel's letter as quoted by Wang.)

We do have the striking example of Gödel who possesses firmly held philosophical views which played an essential role in making his fundamental new scientific discoveries, and who is well aware of the importance of his philosophical views for his scientific work. A paper of Skolem in 1922 contains the mathematical core of the proof of the completeness of pure logic. In commenting on the puzzling fact that Skolem failed to draw the interesting conclusion of completeness from his work, Gödel wrote the following paragraphs about the role which his philosophical views played in his work in mathematical logic:

The completeness theorem, mathematically, is indeed an almost trivial consequence of Skolem 1922. However, the fact is that, at that time, nobody (including Skolem himself) drew this conclusion (neither from Skolem 1922 nor, as did I, from similar considerations on his own).

(...) when in his 1928 paper (...) he 〔Skolem〕stated a completeness theorem (about refutation), he did not use his lemma of 1922 for the proof. Rather he gave an entirely inconclusive argument. (...)

This blindness (or prejudice, or whatever you may call it) of logicians is indeed surprising. But I think the explanation is not hard to find. It lies in a widespread lack, at that time, of the required epistemological attitude toward metamathematics and toward non-finitary reasoning.

Non-finitary reasoning in mathematics was widely considered to be meaningful only to the extent to which it can be 'interpreted' or 'justified' in terms of finitary metamathematics. (Note that this, for the most part, has turned out to be impossible in consequence of my results and consequent work.) This view, almost unavoidably, leads to an exclusion of non-finitary reasoning from metamathematics. For, such reasoning, in order to be permissible, would require a finitary metamathematics. But this seems to be a confusing and unnnecessary duplication. Moreover, admitting 'meaningless' transfinite elements into metamathematics is inconsistent with the very idea of this science prevalent at the time. For according to this idea metamathematics is the meaningful part of mathematics, through which the mathematical symbols (meaningless in themselves) acquire some substitute of meaning, namely rules of use. Of course, the essence of this viewpoint is a rejection of all kinds of abstract or infinite objects, of which the prima facie meanings of mathematical symbols are instances. I.e. meaning is attributed solely to propositions which speak of concrete and finite objects, such as combinations of symbols.

But now the aforementioned easy inference from Skolem 1922 is definitely non-finitary, and so is any other completeness proof of the predicate calculus. Therefore these things escaped notice or were disregarded.

I may add that my objectivistic conception of mathematics and metamathematics in general, and of transfinite reasoning in particular, was fundamental also to my other work in logic.

How indeed could one think of expressing metamathematics in the mathematical systems themselves, if the latter are considered to consist of meaningless symbols which acquire some substitute of meaning only through metamathematics?

Or how could one give a consistency proof for the continuum hypothesis by means of a transfinite model △ if consistency proofs have to be finitary? (Not to mention that from the finitary point of view an interpretation of set theory in terms of △ seems preposterous from the beginning, because it is an 'interpretation' in terms of something which itself has no meaning.) The fact that such an interpretation (...) yields a finitary relative consistency proof apparently escaped notice.

Finally it should be noted that the heuristic principle of my construction of undecidable number theoretical propositions in the formal systems of mathematics is the highly transfinite concept of 'objective mathematical truth', as opposed to that of 'demonstrability' (...), with which it was generally confused before my own and Tarski's work. Again the use of this transfinite concept eventually leads to finitarily provable results, e.g. general theorems about the existence of undecidable propositions in consistent formal systems.

In a later letter Gödel adds a bit of a caveat (I'll only give a partial quote):

Of course, the formalistic point of view did not make impossible consistency proofs by means of transfinite models. It only made them much harder to discover, because they are somehow not congenial to this attitude of mind. However, as far as the continuum hypothesis is concerned, there was a special obstacle which really made it practically impossible for constructivists to discover my consistency proof. It is the fact that the ramified hierarchy, which had been invented expressly for constructivist purposes, has to be used in an entirely nonconstructive way.

Wang mentions some of his more detailed follow-up questions and Gödel's responses and summarizes those as

Gödel observes that it is possible to get, without his objectivism, different proofs of his incompleteness results, by using, for example, the analysis of formal systems in terms of Turing machines. But the proofs are much harder to discover.

Wang then also discusses in more depth the continuum hypothesis where Gödel attributes Hilbert's failure to attain a definite result earlier to a "philosophical error", i.e. not his reluctance in using nonconstructive mathematical proofs (which was a mere reluctance, not a total rejection), but the belief that nonconstructive metamathematics is of no use.

Wang finally also points at an apparent, well-known counter-example where "the positivist position ... turned out to be fruitful" - which is Einstein's clarification of the concept of 'simultaneity'.

The rough idea is that asking the operational meaning of simultaneity is a crucial step in the discovery of the special theory.

Einstein himself pointed out the importance to him of the writings of Hume and Ernst Mach.

Gödel points out that the fruitfulness of the positivistic point of view in this case is due to a very exceptional circumstance, namely the fact that the basic concept to be clarified, i.e. simultaneity, is directly observable, while general basic entities (such as elementary particles, the forces between them, etc.) are not. Hence the positivistic requirement that everything has to be reduced to observations is justified in this case. That, generally speaking, positivism is not fruitful even in physics seems to follow from the fact that, since it has been more or less adopted in quantum physics (i.e. about 40 years ago) no substantial progress has been achieved in the the basic laws of physics, even though the present 'two-level' theory (with its 'quantization' of a 'classical system', and its divergent series) is admittedly very unsatisfactory. Perhaps, what ought to be done is to separate the subjective and objective elements in Schrödinger's wave function, which so far has by no means been proved impossible. But exactly this question is 'meaningless' from the positivistic point of view.


As I said at the outset, I don't have an answer to the OPs general question and don't know what to think of these very strongly presented views of an eminent mathematician. As direct self-reflective observations about Gödel's own experiences and his process of discovery, of course, we can only accept this. But I also believe there is an undeniable vagueness at the core:

... somehow not congenial to this attitude of mind ...

I also wonder: For other important concepts - for instance the concept of a turing machine - wasn't a firmly anti-realist view required? Was it not Turing's "concretist", engineering-like mindset (which is not quite the same as a "formalist" one but still seems very "anti-realist") that enabled him to come up with this? Further, it seems to me that the strong "objectivity" in math, the amazing agreement and certainty about mathematical results, crucially depends on notation. We externalize "concepts" so they become the little lego blocks we can play with (and which can then be glommed together in new blocks). Is it perhaps the notation (the way we use that) that then makes it appear as if we're dealing with a totally different realm of existence, a realm that exists independent of our constructions?

9
  • There seems a big informational gap between the 'wonderful' long quotes and your final self-composed paragraph which basically doubts what you quotes or some other new confusions emerge... Commented Aug 9 at 18:05
  • @DoubleKnot - The final paragraph is just my personal musings, not really of any importance or consequence. I just wanted to give a little counter-weight to Gödel's very strong confirmation that for him realism definitely seemed important. So, yes, I did want to rattle that realist belief a little - or at least ask some more questions (to which I don't have an answer). I don't think the last word has been said about it :)
    – mudskipper
    Commented Aug 9 at 18:11
  • 1
    Oh that explains the puzzling final paragraph. As for the counter, perhaps Gödel didn't study error theory seriously and realistically enough but he definitely became depressed in old age to see the world... Commented Aug 9 at 18:16
  • @DoubleKnot - I've updated the last paragraph a bit - hopefully this makes it a bit clearer!
    – mudskipper
    Commented Aug 9 at 18:18
  • 1
    @Kaia - The double quote blocks are intentional. They indicate Wang quoting Gödel's letter!
    – mudskipper
    Commented Aug 9 at 22:56
4

Short Answer

We cannot know anything with certainty. Realism vs. anti-realism does not matter.

Knowledge, which is generally defined as knowledge ABOUT THE WORLD, however, basically presumes realism.

Some elaboration on realism vs anti-realism

Epistemology has identified three basic categories of knowledge methods:

  • Direct intuitive apprehension of the world (presumes realism)
  • deductive reasoning from known facts (foundationalism, based on direct intuition) and intuitively known logic
  • Indirect inference thru indirect realism.

Direct knowledge and indirect reasoning, both presume realism. Anti-realists "translate" these concepts into anti-realist language. Anti-realism is an example of the Quine Duhem principle -- one can always come up with a different model (generally a more complex model, that is the case for anti-realism) that matches any observations. Realism vs anti-realism therefore does not and cannot really matter.

Why we cannot have certainty

What DOES matter, is that skeptical philosophers have chipped away at the list of things that are "unquestionable", to the point that there is basically nothing on that list.

Selfhood, and experience -- the two core elements of Descartes foundationalism, have been question by Gautama, and Hume, and Dennett. One can come back and poke holes in each of their alternative models of how things are, but the existence of legitimate questioning -- shows that selfhood and experience are not UNQUESTINABLE IN PRINCIPLE. Hence even these two intuitively known starting points are not certain, and cannot serve as an unquestionable foundation to build knowledge on.

Likewise, logic is pluralist, and therefore there is more than one "reasoning", and therefore deduction cannot give certainty either. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/think/article/guide-to-logical-pluralism-for-nonlogicians/EDFDFA1C9EB65DB71848DABD6B12D877

What CAN we do?

Our inferences as to how to do reasoning, what is real, etc., are pragmatic inferences, not certain ones. Popper described the process of building a worldview as one where one does not rely upon certainty, but instead upon well-supported working assumptions. Pragmatic foundationalism does not claim and can never deliver certainty. But it CAN deliver a model that is highly useful across a large spectrum of life and world problems.

7
  • 1
    Add Derek Parfitt to those who nibbled away our selfhood. Add Wittgenstein who tried to wipe out essentialism. Add William James - as our savior :)
    – mudskipper
    Commented Aug 8 at 18:46
  • I appreciate this angle thank you
    – J Kusin
    Commented Aug 8 at 19:50
  • 1
    @mudskipper -- for sure there have been many hands in tearing down certainties. Likewise, the buildup of a pragmatic alternative truth framework that lives without certainties has involved many hands. I didn't credit James or Dewey. because I never found them directly cited in Popper's thinking. I had to make that connection myself: "Oh, this is applied pragmatism"! Yes, for sure both were essential prior thinkers to give Popper's solution a credible reference frame.
    – Dcleve
    Commented Aug 8 at 19:51
  • I removed certain from my title because it might have led posters think I meant the knowledge had to be certain. I just mean is there a class of knowledge that an anti realist cannot grasp. I think you answer still holds.
    – J Kusin
    Commented Aug 9 at 4:47
  • 1
    @JKusin this answer is now OBE relative to the modified question, but I thinks is still useful to related issues you are thinking about. Per the modified question -- the advantage realism has is psychological. Scientists and philosophers are more motivated to "understand the world" than to "solve abstract puzzles". Hence the translation of realist framing of the world to anti-realist formulatons, would in many cases demotivate the practioners of these fields.
    – Dcleve
    Commented Aug 10 at 16:42
1

With regard to mathematics, one can discern a few areas where there might be practical consequences to adopting x-realism where x could be "pro" or "anti". A leading mathematician working in mathematical physics once said: "It seems appropriate to think of real numbers as truly existing - otherwise why are we studying them?" To put it in another way, to make progress in studying mathematical phenomena/entities, it provides incentive to believe that they really exist.

On the other hand, realist beliefs can also be an impediment in making progress in certain areas of mathematics. If you think sets, sets of sets, ... (the whole cumulative hierarchy) really exist in some Platonic realm of the abstracta, then it becomes difficult to understand how the whole shebang somehow fails to do so, as I have elaborated elsewhere. Similarly, realist notions of N and R (and in particular beliefs in the existence of standard models a.k.a. intended interpretations) make it difficult to understand the axiomatic approach to nonstandard analysis, for example. Some have argued that they also make it difficult to understand Goedel's incompleteness, though Goedel himself held realist views.

So arguably there do exist substantive issues that depend on the realist/antirealist debate.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .